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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2961 - 2014-05-31 07:35:46 UTC
Hasril Pux wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Hasril Pux wrote:
@Ameiz Keram: I posted a fit on battleclinic in an attempt to retain some semblance of a Rattlesnake L4 mission sniper,

Cabal Kodiak


Quote:

I've hit Angel battleships orbiting at 15ish km with Bouncers without having to resort to Tracking Scripts.


Does not compute.


Tis true. Try it on Singularity.


I didnt question the truthfullnes, i questioned how a bs would get to you to 15km with 1500 dps flung at the room, and how does that go inside with you having a mjd fit.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#2962 - 2014-05-31 07:38:42 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Hasril Pux wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Hasril Pux wrote:
@Ameiz Keram: I posted a fit on battleclinic in an attempt to retain some semblance of a Rattlesnake L4 mission sniper,

Cabal Kodiak


Quote:

I've hit Angel battleships orbiting at 15ish km with Bouncers without having to resort to Tracking Scripts.


Does not compute.


Tis true. Try it on Singularity.


I didnt question the truthfullnes, i questioned how a bs would get to you to 15km with 1500 dps flung at the room, and how does that go inside with you having a mjd fit.


Because I'm TESTING the fit, man. I'm not trying to own missions on test server.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2963 - 2014-05-31 07:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Hasril Pux wrote:

Because I'm TESTING the fit, man. I'm not trying to own missions on test server.


Fair enuf, as you say , master of none.

(but i still think 2 x navy omni is too much, 1x omni II should be enuf)

EDIT: and failfitclinic does not disappoint :)

Quote:

This ship is being redesigned to support missiles as its primary damage source.
Ziphonius
In Tenebris
#2964 - 2014-05-31 08:32:19 UTC
Just going to put my comment on the Rattlesnake here.

Why do a rattle need HP bonus on sentries? They are barely hit due to their sig radius. Instead of that, you remove the only reason to use the rattle instead of any gallente battleship. Now it has no more bonus to "possible omni-damage". Bonus to damage types OTHER than KIN/THERM was the reason why I did choose this ship (okay, another reason were resistence bonus/tank setting).

For me, this is a huge step backwards, even with the 1 more launcher spot. The rattle is basically a ship with time delayed KIN/THERM damage now that can even be prevented from the target ships (counter rockets. Don't know the english name by now.)

It isn't even possible to carry enough sentries any more to be able to launch them depending on the situation need. You have two, and thats it. You need a long time forecast to fit that ship now. No chance to swap between "oh sh... not enough damage" or "oh sh... too fast!"

So... what speaks for the ship for now?
-> A lot less versatile due to limits in damage types, range and variety of drones available
-> To PvE aggro a ship on long range, you can use the target painters now because missiles won't reach or it takes forever. And EM/EXP damage is weak anyway. So... wasted money.
-> Moar damage to the two sentries you cannot exchange in battle.

Not a good deal for me...

However, we will see how this changes in the future. Removing the stupid gallente weakness (KIN/THERM), instead boost the flight speed again and giving the ship a 3rd or 4th sentry drone bay place would make this ship fly again.

Well, lets hope and see.

Regards.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#2965 - 2014-05-31 08:50:31 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
(but i still think 2 x navy omni is too much, 1x omni II should be enuf)


I'll look into that. If it works on a 0-100km range generalist I'll totally drop one of those omnis.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2966 - 2014-05-31 09:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Ziphonius wrote:
Just going to put my comment on the Rattlesnake here.

Why do a rattle need HP bonus on sentries? They are barely hit due to their sig radius. Instead of that, you remove the only reason to use the rattle instead of any gallente battleship. Now it has no more bonus to "possible omni-damage". Bonus to damage types OTHER than KIN/THERM was the reason why I did choose this ship (okay, another reason were resistence bonus/tank setting).


Why are people thinking a damage buff where none existed before (missiles) is somehow a nerf?

Sentry damage is the same, 2/4 missile damage types are buffed, the others unchanged.



Ziphonius wrote:
-> A lot less versatile due to limits in damage types, range and variety of drones available
-> To PvE aggro a ship on long range, you can use the target painters now because missiles won't reach or it takes forever. And EM/EXP damage is weak anyway. So... wasted money.
-> Moar damage to the two sentries you cannot exchange in battle.

Not a good deal for me...


You're no less limited in damage type tha today, just some tomorrow are better.


Your EM/Exp missiles are going to do exactly the same damage as they do now.

Cruise without speed bonuses STILL go further than you can lock, so I'm not sure I see the problem. And that's fury, the "short" range ones.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2967 - 2014-05-31 11:39:00 UTC
afkalt wrote:




Ziphonius wrote:
-> A lot less versatile due to limits in damage types, range and variety of drones available
-> To PvE aggro a ship on long range, you can use the target painters now because missiles won't reach or it takes forever. And EM/EXP damage is weak anyway. So... wasted money.
-> Moar damage to the two sentries you cannot exchange in battle.

Not a good deal for me...


You're no less limited in damage type tha today, just some tomorrow are better.


Your EM/Exp missiles are going to do exactly the same damage as they do now.

Cruise without speed bonuses STILL go further than you can lock, so I'm not sure I see the problem. And that's fury, the "short" range ones.


I just have to add... People don't seem to get that Therm is the secondary weakness of Blood Raiders & Sansha. Kin is the secondary weakness of Angels. What does that mean?

A typical Sansha's mission battleship has a resist of 45 % to EM, 55% to Therm, 65% to Kin, 75% to explosive. You'll do 20% more damage per missile using Therm with these bonuses than you did before using EM in that case. Even on elite NPC's, you'll almost always do slightly more damage per missile. That holds true on Blood Raiders, Rogue Drones, Angels, Amarr, etc.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2968 - 2014-05-31 11:55:05 UTC
Anyway, as to my argument about the Bhaalgorn.

I say "arguably got nerfed" just in terms of the Bhaalgorn itself. The NOS changes are a net gain, of course.

But when it comes to in this thread, for that ship, I'd say it lost in the change from web strength to web range. That's a net loss imo. But that's just my opinion.

But then I did notice that it got it's drones buffed by a fair amount. Could make up for it, idk. Haven't really bothered testing the Bhaalgorn on SiSi yet, just the Rattler and the Nightmare.

But Kronos itself is a huge net gain for the Bhaalgorn.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2969 - 2014-05-31 14:01:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anyway, as to my argument about the Bhaalgorn.

I say "arguably got nerfed" just in terms of the Bhaalgorn itself. The NOS changes are a net gain, of course.

But when it comes to in this thread, for that ship, I'd say it lost in the change from web strength to web range. That's a net loss imo. But that's just my opinion.

But then I did notice that it got it's drones buffed by a fair amount. Could make up for it, idk. Haven't really bothered testing the Bhaalgorn on SiSi yet, just the Rattler and the Nightmare.

But Kronos itself is a huge net gain for the Bhaalgorn.

The Bhaalgorn has had a web range bonus for years Roll

Look on TQ right now
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2970 - 2014-05-31 15:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Abmeiz Keram wrote:
@Kaarous Aldurald:
That is not how it looks in theory:

Heavy drones against frigates:
According to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/ :" Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets that spend most of their time at suboptimal ranges." - On top of everything: Will I be able to kill webbing drones, or any other drones, orbiting my Rattlesnake? I will have to use 5 light, unbonused light drones instead of old 5 bonused ones.
All drone boats receive changes due to changes to drones, but Rattlesnake is going to lose something quite important (light and medium drones bonus) while keeping the same damage on heavy and sentries and you call that an incredible buff? Or maybe 5th launcher and a damage bonus for 2 out of 4 damage types? I believe you don't use Rattlesnake much.

Let me explain from my practical, tested on TQ, point of view:

With Rapid Heavy Missile launchers I can kill cruisers, but at ~3-5x slower rate than with medium or light drones and I can hardly kill a frigate with those launchers.
I could use Rapid Light Missile launchers, but now the range of missiles (on Rattlesnake) will be nerfed, plus they are useless against battleships while damage of heavy and sentry stays the same after Kronos.
After Kronos with 5 cruise launchers I can kill some (those week for thermal and kinetic) battleships better, but it takes time for cruises to reach targets and nobody likes that, so sentries will still be better than cruises. But using 5th launcher I will limit my control range by 24km, so now the control range decreases as well and I get less time to kill (with sentries) incoming frigates (that my cruises won't kill) and If I let them come too close I risk being warp scrambled, or webed and than I would stay in one place till the end of time, or till somebody ganks me. Especially those frigs with high resist, or those Serpentis frigs, that kill my drones fast (and i have to shuffle my drones in and out all the time), or those webbing frigs, that will kill my drones, before they will be able come back safely to my dronebay.
So I guess I'll have to downgrade my damage and use 4x Rapid Light Missile launchers plus 2x Drone Link Augumentor II to keep a bit of sniping&control range (although when you look at Raven or some other "cheap", T1 battleship's targeting and sniping range... pirate battleship Rattlesnake looks really pale). With that fitting the Rattlesnake will not change significantly after Kronos.

This is from the practical point of view and not some fitting tool, or SiSi tested knowledge, as I don't have time for this :). I'll find out next Tuesday and see how bad it is... or maybe I'm wrong and i'll be surprised to see it's better?

I don't use Rattlesnake for PVP but I guess that that use will become even less popular now, unless in fleet of mixed size ships, where Rattlers will focus on battleships only.

Wasn't Rattlesnake the cheapest and least used pirate battleship? Wasn't this revamp supposed to make less often used pirate factions ships become more attractive and to make sure they are better than other, non-faction ships?

@baltec1:
I pray you are right :). I'll have to do a few L4's to find out. Till then: thanks for cheering me up :D.


I have been trying the rattlesnake in comparison to the raven NI on Sisi.

The missions that have a considerable number of light drones, where the rattlesnake had an advantage, are now MUCH slower with the new Kronos rattlesnake, bouncers are the Sentry drone of choice if you want to have any chance of killing spider drones or other fast rats during approach.

Heavies get absolutely murdered, if you let them get off a very short leash, in any mission where rats have a higher than average drone aggro.

Heavy drones struggle greatly if a fast frigate gets into orbit. They just keep missing. Slow frigs no problem, they get them eventually.

In short if a spider drone gets close, you will waste a great deal of time and your unbonused light drones will take too much damage to be able to redeploy the full flight. Two flights are essential.

To deal with them you now need to web them in addition or spend 3-5 times as long to destroy them. You MUST primary them on approach in every case, as if you let them get into orbit, they are a real issue. Unfortunately, locking them all quickly and destroying them is not possible in some missions even with a Sebo before the survivors get into orbit. +(another slot gone)What?

So the rattlesnake has become a missile boat, as if you fit for drone damage it is a substandard missile boat and a substandard drone boat.
So fit as a missile boat with 3 rigors, a TP a web, tech 2 precisions, and maximise damage for missiles, and you have a useable but unexciting missile boat as it lacks the RNI application bonus.(fill up with two or three flights of unbonused lights, you will need them, plus patience.)

You may notice that with all these mods to apply damage to two systems, your "legendary" tank has gone somewhere.What?

For PvP? Rapid heavy missiles I guess, but that is not a good option for missions.

So looks like raven navy for it's missile application bonus, or dominix for it's drone application bonus.

The rattlesnake, apart from PvP gank use, not really best at anything, and worse at many.
Pity.
A little help with application against small fast rats and it could have been quite interesting.
As it stands it has gained a fatal flaw.

Edit, it will be quite good in a multibox situation, but still a dominix or RNI would be a better choice.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2971 - 2014-05-31 15:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Sal Landry wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anyway, as to my argument about the Bhaalgorn.

I say "arguably got nerfed" just in terms of the Bhaalgorn itself. The NOS changes are a net gain, of course.

But when it comes to in this thread, for that ship, I'd say it lost in the change from web strength to web range. That's a net loss imo. But that's just my opinion.

But then I did notice that it got it's drones buffed by a fair amount. Could make up for it, idk. Haven't really bothered testing the Bhaalgorn on SiSi yet, just the Rattler and the Nightmare.

But Kronos itself is a huge net gain for the Bhaalgorn.

The Bhaalgorn has had a web range bonus for years Roll

Look on TQ right now


*FACEPALM.

There goes my brain. And now I need to go edit the wiki for the ship. That will teach me to use anything but the Uni wiki.

Well, please ignore.

[edit: Now it makes sense why the Ashimmu and the Cruor got their webs changed, because the Bhaalgorn already was. What a baffling inconsistency...

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2972 - 2014-05-31 15:39:47 UTC
epicurus, you are cherrypicking bad fits to try and prove your point.

You're also fussing too much about application.

Even if you fit the Rattlesnake as a missile boat and ignore the drone modules, then it becomes a better Scorpion Navy Issue with damage bonused sentries.

That's a damned fine ship, no matter how much you might wring your hands about having to use the same light drones that, to use your own example, the Navy Raven has. Or nearly every other battleship in the game.

My Paladin does just fine without bonused light drones. Somehow I can manage to do missions without running into this mysterious problem you keep talking about where they get blapped constantly by the drone hungry rats.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2973 - 2014-05-31 15:46:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus, you are cherrypicking bad fits to try and prove your point.

You're also fussing too much about application.

Even if you fit the Rattlesnake as a missile boat and ignore the drone modules, then it becomes a better Scorpion Navy Issue with damage bonused sentries.

That's a damned fine ship, no matter how much you might wring your hands about having to use the same light drones that, to use your own example, the Navy Raven has. Or nearly every other battleship in the game.

My Paladin does just fine without bonused light drones. Somehow I can manage to do missions without running into this mysterious problem you keep talking about where they get blapped constantly by the drone hungry rats.



Try it yourself over a dozen missions on SISI, it is substandard to the RNI and Substandard To the Dominix.
It does not matter how you fit it, it ends up worse than currently no matter how fit, the time to destroy FAST small targets has gone through the roof. On missions that have significant numbers, players will just reject those.
Slow small rats are not much of an issue just a little annoying.
Sure one CAN use it, but that is not the point.
For missioning, it has become a worse ship.
For your uses it may be an improvement, that is good for you.
Unfortunately the rebalance has left it in a worse place for a large number of users.
That is an unnecessary and undesired, outcome.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2974 - 2014-05-31 15:53:42 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Try it yourself over a dozen missions on SISI, it is substandard to the RNI and Substandard To the Dominix.


Pretty much the only thing I've done since it hit on SiSi since this new mirror hit is use my SiSi toon to fly a Rattlesnake.

I've done considerably more than a dozen missions.

And the only thing I can beat my mission time in the Rattlesnake is with my Paladin. And it should lose to a marauder. Otherwise I have no complaints.


Quote:

For missioning, it has become a worse ship.


Completely, utterly untrue. See above. It rivals the TFI in completion times, and the TFI kicks six kinds of ass.


Quote:


For your uses it may be an improvement, that is good for you.
Unfortunately the rebalance has left it in a worse place for a large number of users.
That is an unnecessary and undesired, outcome.


You and Fabulous Rod are not a large number of users.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2975 - 2014-05-31 16:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Try it yourself over a dozen missions on SISI, it is substandard to the RNI and Substandard To the Dominix.


Pretty much the only thing I've done since it hit on SiSi since this new mirror hit is use my SiSi toon to fly a Rattlesnake.

I've done considerably more than a dozen missions.

And the only thing I can beat my mission time in the Rattlesnake is with my Paladin. And it should lose to a marauder. Otherwise I have no complaints.


Quote:

For missioning, it has become a worse ship.


Completely, utterly untrue. See above. It rivals the TFI in completion times, and the TFI kicks six kinds of ass.


Quote:


For your uses it may be an improvement, that is good for you.
Unfortunately the rebalance has left it in a worse place for a large number of users.
That is an unnecessary and undesired, outcome.


You and Fabulous Rod are not a large number of users.



Please do not compare me to anyone else,I am referring to people who run missions, I am not saying it is a "bad" ship, for some missions, I will keep it for, those it does well., for missions with a large number of fast rats, the RNI has the abilities to clear them as they approach, and still kill them in close (a little slow but acceptable) with precisions, that does not work with the Rattlesnake.
Kill them with bouncers on approach or you are really out of luck. The old Rattlesnake had this in balance and capabilities. it did this well
Dominix or RNI are the two battleship choices, one T1 one Navy,
The pirate vessel is inferior, not bad just inferior.
One does not expect a superior product to be inferior.

And remember, not everyone has our skills, some will really suffer here.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2976 - 2014-05-31 16:17:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The pirate vessel is inferior, not bad just inferior.
One does not expect a superior product to be inferior.


It's not. It's borderline overpowered.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2977 - 2014-05-31 16:24:40 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Please do not compare me to anyone else,I am referring to people who run missions, I am not saying it is a "bad" ship, for some missions, I will keep it for, those it does well., for missions with a large number of fast rats, the RNI has the abilities to clear them as they approach, and still kill them in close (a little slow but acceptable) with precisions, that does not work with the Rattlesnake.
Kill them with bouncers on approach or you are really out of luck. The old Rattlesnake had this in balance and capabilities. it did this well
Dominix or RNI are the two battleship choices, one T1 one Navy,
The pirate vessel is inferior, not bad just inferior.
One does not expect a superior product to be inferior.

And remember, not everyone has our skills, some will really suffer here.


Lets keep our feet on the ground.

Maybe it would help if you would explain the situations where it is sub par, outside the odd spider drone encounter, which for you seem to be carrying the plague and everyone else that uses a sniper fit just ignores until everything else is dead.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2978 - 2014-05-31 16:58:15 UTC
Everyone in this thread, please stop replying to Rod and Epic. Just ******* stop.

The reason this thread is an unreadable ****-heap isn't because of their trolling, it's because you guys keep eating the bait. Stop.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2979 - 2014-05-31 17:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
@epicurus.

Two things - a) can you post the fit and b) did you use precisions and painters on small stuff? Because that tends to two shot even elites from 0-max range*


Edit: And another question - how is the CNR killing these drones? Because how you kil lthem with that, is how you kill them with the rattlesnake, if all else failed.


Edit 2: * not so much spider drones, but they can be ignored as they do not shoot at all, so can be left until the very end and popped at leisure or flat out ignored. It's not like you'll be speed tanking much in a rattlesnake Smile
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#2980 - 2014-05-31 17:10:31 UTC
Ships aren't balanced against L4 missions, but against each other's and other ships. Saving the Damsel is irrelevant in this context and it's insane that the same two trolls have been allowed to ruin this discussion thread with 100 pages of pure nonsense.