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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2941 - 2014-05-30 17:30:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/#Range

New update to the drone changes, which are pertinent to the Rattlesnake.


That's a massive buff to heavies.
Miguel Duran
Silver Lining Project
#2942 - 2014-05-30 19:00:09 UTC
It is amazing how many people are bad at elementary level math.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#2943 - 2014-05-30 19:01:30 UTC
i honnestly asking myself ,how will perform a three rigged warspeed mach in lvl 4 ? i came with a pretty decent fit last night i had to remove a TE for a navy comp but it doesn't look too bad :) And with an ascendancy high grade + a 615 this little rascal is damn fast for a bs hull
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2944 - 2014-05-30 19:19:55 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
i honnestly asking myself ,how will perform a three rigged warspeed mach in lvl 4 ? i came with a pretty decent fit last night i had to remove a TE for a navy comp but it doesn't look too bad :) And with an ascendancy high grade + a 615 this little rascal is damn fast for a bs hull


I would go with two T2 warp speed rigs on it and use the last slot for something else.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#2945 - 2014-05-30 19:31:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
i honnestly asking myself ,how will perform a three rigged warspeed mach in lvl 4 ? i came with a pretty decent fit last night i had to remove a TE for a navy comp but it doesn't look too bad :) And with an ascendancy high grade + a 615 this little rascal is damn fast for a bs hull


I would go with two T2 warp speed rigs on it and use the last slot for something else.


well currently the fit is planned to go with 3 xt2 warpspeed rigs + ascendancy high grade giving me 6 au/s currently probably a lit bit more than 7au/s after the patch .
Maybe i could swap one for a polycarbon or CCC
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2946 - 2014-05-30 20:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Myrthiis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
i honnestly asking myself ,how will perform a three rigged warspeed mach in lvl 4 ? i came with a pretty decent fit last night i had to remove a TE for a navy comp but it doesn't look too bad :) And with an ascendancy high grade + a 615 this little rascal is damn fast for a bs hull


I would go with two T2 warp speed rigs on it and use the last slot for something else.


well currently the fit is planned to go with 3 xt2 warpspeed rigs + ascendancy high grade giving me 6 au/s currently probably a lit bit more than 7au/s after the patch .
Maybe i could swap one for a polycarbon or CCC


Come patch day the warp speed rigs will be stacking penalised and the implants a bit better. With the bonus on the mach you could just go with the implants for better than cruiser warp speeds which would leave the rig slots free. You could go with one T2 warp speed rig.
Abmeiz Keram
Eagle Nebula Industries
#2947 - 2014-05-30 21:42:55 UTC
From the point of view of someone, that most of the time uses drones only and missiles only when irritated:

With lower drone damage bonus than other Gurista's ships, the new Rattlesnake is going to suffer from dealing less damage to cruisers and frigates, than old Rattlesnake did and especially against frigates I don't see kinetic and thermal bonus to missiles, plus 5th missile launcher is going help much. So that's a nerf. Plus sentries would have less range if you want to use 5th launcher and everyone knows how we (not) love launchers when sniping.

So let's do something special to make Rattlesnake awesome by adding a special rule (like special rule for Energy Vampires when fitted on Bloodriders ships) and allow Rattlesnake to field as many drones, as it's bandwidth allows. So that would make 10 light, 5 medium, 2 heavy and 2 sentry drones.

Joke: add a rule for Geko, that it requires 50% less bandwidth when used by a Gurista's ship (so that would apply to Rattlesnake only). Who wuld use Geko's for pvp anyway? They will die out soon, like Golden Magnate did ;). Unless I don't know about something?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2948 - 2014-05-30 22:14:00 UTC
Abmeiz Keram wrote:
From the point of view of someone, that most of the time uses drones only and missiles only when irritated:

With lower drone damage bonus than other Gurista's ships, the new Rattlesnake is going to suffer from dealing less damage to cruisers and frigates, than old Rattlesnake did and especially against frigates I don't see kinetic and thermal bonus to missiles, plus 5th missile launcher is going help much. So that's a nerf. Plus sentries would have less range if you want to use 5th launcher and everyone knows how we (not) love launchers when sniping.

So let's do something special to make Rattlesnake awesome by adding a special rule (like special rule for Energy Vampires when fitted on Bloodriders ships) and allow Rattlesnake to field as many drones, as it's bandwidth allows. So that would make 10 light, 5 medium, 2 heavy and 2 sentry drones.

Joke: add a rule for Geko, that it requires 50% less bandwidth when used by a Gurista's ship (so that would apply to Rattlesnake only). Who wuld use Geko's for pvp anyway? They will die out soon, like Golden Magnate did ;). Unless I don't know about something?



You should test this ship on sisi. It has few issues with frigates and none with cruisers. Its range is also not bad and is on par with other battleships. It slots in nicely for close to mid range.
Esceem
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2949 - 2014-05-30 23:15:09 UTC
CCP Vesna Prishla wrote:
good changes :D RATTLESNAKEEEE


Nope...

I dislike especially the drone changes because

  • the drone bonus will only apply to large drones.
  • lose a drone and the drone's DPS drops by 50% instead of currently just 20%

This plus the reduction of missile range. Guess I'll sell mine once this hits TQ...
Abmeiz Keram
Eagle Nebula Industries
#2950 - 2014-05-30 23:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abmeiz Keram
baltec1 wrote:
Abmeiz Keram wrote:
(...)

You should test this ship on sisi. It has few issues with frigates and none with cruisers. Its range is also not bad and is on par with other battleships. It slots in nicely for close to mid range.

I admit, I didn't test it yet, but just looking at the stats it's weaker than the old/current Rattlesnake against Cruisers and Frigates. Maybe a BS should do well against a BS and less well against smaller vessels, but still I have a feeling that other pirate BSs where buffed, or remained awesome and just Rattlesnake got a mixed approach.
But I will still use it (probably), as I use the current one: 4 launchers + 2x Drone Link Augumentor II. It has never been a true sniping boat, so at least I'll try to keep it the way it was up until Kronos ;).

I remember something about Drone Skills to be somehow revamped so maybe CCP could buff the Drone Control Range that way?

Edit.: Then how about adding drone tracking speed bonus? That would be fair :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2951 - 2014-05-31 01:13:40 UTC
Abmeiz Keram wrote:

I admit, I didn't test it yet, but just looking at the stats it's weaker than the old/current Rattlesnake against Cruisers and Frigates. Maybe a BS should do well against a BS and less well against smaller vessels, but still I have a feeling that other pirate BSs where buffed, or remained awesome and just Rattlesnake got a mixed approach.


You're completely wrong. The Bhaalgorn got arguably nerfed, the Nightmare got a largely useless bonus, the Machariel and the Vindicator were basically not changed, and the Rattlesnake got incredibly buffed.

The missile bonus applies to any and all sizes of missiles, so if you are really so worried about frigate and cruiser NPCs, just use Rapid Heavy Missile launchers and watch them melt.


Quote:

Edit.: Then how about adding drone tracking speed bonus? That would be fair :)


They already are. The dev blog on the subject was updated.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2952 - 2014-05-31 01:40:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The Bhaalgorn got arguably nerfed
Could you explain this? I don't fly one but it seemed a very neutral change, only drawing benefit from the lines NOS buff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2953 - 2014-05-31 03:10:13 UTC
Abmeiz Keram wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Abmeiz Keram wrote:
(...)

You should test this ship on sisi. It has few issues with frigates and none with cruisers. Its range is also not bad and is on par with other battleships. It slots in nicely for close to mid range.

I admit, I didn't test it yet, but just looking at the stats it's weaker than the old/current Rattlesnake against Cruisers and Frigates. Maybe a BS should do well against a BS and less well against smaller vessels, but still I have a feeling that other pirate BSs where buffed, or remained awesome and just Rattlesnake got a mixed approach.
But I will still use it (probably), as I use the current one: 4 launchers + 2x Drone Link Augumentor II. It has never been a true sniping boat, so at least I'll try to keep it the way it was up until Kronos ;).

I remember something about Drone Skills to be somehow revamped so maybe CCP could buff the Drone Control Range that way?

Edit.: Then how about adding drone tracking speed bonus? That would be fair :)


Dump that second drone link and use the launcher, you are gaining quite a bit more firepower with it.

The heavy drones are tracking frigates just fine come kronos and a combination of cruise missiles and sentries makes short work of cruisers.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2954 - 2014-05-31 03:22:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The Bhaalgorn got arguably nerfed
Could you explain this? I don't fly one but it seemed a very neutral change, only drawing benefit from the lines NOS buff.

It didn't get nerfed at all. The Neuts work the same, it got a huge buff to using NOS, and more DPS from drones (bandwidth/bay)..

NM Bonus, well, it'll work for Incursions.. at least if you don't already run an X-Type MWD.. and the extra slot is a nice addition.. Also if you don't use an AB, that one less BS skill you need to 5 to maximize the BS, now that like a Vindi the DPS bonus is a role bonus, and not a per level.

Vindi is Epic as always.

Nestor is shite as always.

RS I'm not a fan, but I understand those that are.

Mach didn't lose anything of relevance, and now warps as fast as it flies.. I'm sure it'll see new uses, without affecting it's current uses.
Abmeiz Keram
Eagle Nebula Industries
#2955 - 2014-05-31 03:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Abmeiz Keram
@Kaarous Aldurald:
That is not how it looks in theory:

Heavy drones against frigates:
According to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/ :" Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets that spend most of their time at suboptimal ranges." - On top of everything: Will I be able to kill webbing drones, or any other drones, orbiting my Rattlesnake? I will have to use 5 light, unbonused light drones instead of old 5 bonused ones.
All drone boats receive changes due to changes to drones, but Rattlesnake is going to lose something quite important (light and medium drones bonus) while keeping the same damage on heavy and sentries and you call that an incredible buff? Or maybe 5th launcher and a damage bonus for 2 out of 4 damage types? I believe you don't use Rattlesnake much.

Let me explain from my practical, tested on TQ, point of view:

With Rapid Heavy Missile launchers I can kill cruisers, but at ~3-5x slower rate than with medium or light drones and I can hardly kill a frigate with those launchers.
I could use Rapid Light Missile launchers, but now the range of missiles (on Rattlesnake) will be nerfed, plus they are useless against battleships while damage of heavy and sentry stays the same after Kronos.
After Kronos with 5 cruise launchers I can kill some (those week for thermal and kinetic) battleships better, but it takes time for cruises to reach targets and nobody likes that, so sentries will still be better than cruises. But using 5th launcher I will limit my control range by 24km, so now the control range decreases as well and I get less time to kill (with sentries) incoming frigates (that my cruises won't kill) and If I let them come too close I risk being warp scrambled, or webed and than I would stay in one place till the end of time, or till somebody ganks me. Especially those frigs with high resist, or those Serpentis frigs, that kill my drones fast (and i have to shuffle my drones in and out all the time), or those webbing frigs, that will kill my drones, before they will be able come back safely to my dronebay.
So I guess I'll have to downgrade my damage and use 4x Rapid Light Missile launchers plus 2x Drone Link Augumentor II to keep a bit of sniping&control range (although when you look at Raven or some other "cheap", T1 battleship's targeting and sniping range... pirate battleship Rattlesnake looks really pale). With that fitting the Rattlesnake will not change significantly after Kronos.

This is from the practical point of view and not some fitting tool, or SiSi tested knowledge, as I don't have time for this :). I'll find out next Tuesday and see how bad it is... or maybe I'm wrong and i'll be surprised to see it's better?

I don't use Rattlesnake for PVP but I guess that that use will become even less popular now, unless in fleet of mixed size ships, where Rattlers will focus on battleships only.

Wasn't Rattlesnake the cheapest and least used pirate battleship? Wasn't this revamp supposed to make less often used pirate factions ships become more attractive and to make sure they are better than other, non-faction ships?

@baltec1:
I pray you are right :). I'll have to do a few L4's to find out. Till then: thanks for cheering me up :D.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2956 - 2014-05-31 04:03:23 UTC
Abmeiz Keram wrote:


@baltec1:
I pray you are right :). I'll have to do a few L4's to find out. Till then: thanks for cheering me up :D.


Grab yourself a few gecko drones, they work rather well vs smaller targets and on the rattle they are like launching a little cruiser in terms of tank.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2957 - 2014-05-31 06:10:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Abmeiz Keram wrote:


@baltec1:
I pray you are right :). I'll have to do a few L4's to find out. Till then: thanks for cheering me up :D.


Grab yourself a few gecko drones, they work rather well vs smaller targets and on the rattle they are like launching a little cruiser in terms of tank.


It does seem that everyone is flying ravens and has never flown a drone ship, much less used sentrys in pve, doesnt it? :)
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#2958 - 2014-05-31 07:11:37 UTC
@Ameiz Keram: I posted a fit on battleclinic in an attempt to retain some semblance of a Rattlesnake L4 mission sniper,

Cabal Kodiak

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2959 - 2014-05-31 07:30:02 UTC
Hasril Pux wrote:
@Ameiz Keram: I posted a fit on battleclinic in an attempt to retain some semblance of a Rattlesnake L4 mission sniper,

Cabal Kodiak


Quote:

I've hit Angel battleships orbiting at 15ish km with Bouncers without having to resort to Tracking Scripts.


Does not compute.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#2960 - 2014-05-31 07:32:38 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Hasril Pux wrote:
@Ameiz Keram: I posted a fit on battleclinic in an attempt to retain some semblance of a Rattlesnake L4 mission sniper,

Cabal Kodiak


Quote:

I've hit Angel battleships orbiting at 15ish km with Bouncers without having to resort to Tracking Scripts.


Does not compute.


Tis true. Try it on Singularity.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.