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Returning Players/Skill Points
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Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#41 - 2014-05-30 22:05:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
No. We can agree that having an argument like 5 year olds is not something I'm interested in doing.
So why did you take that route, then?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about it being about training speed?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about it being about attributes?
Why did you inject the fallacious ad hominem about it being bad because I “came up with it”?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about how I “came up with it”?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about the topic also being my invention?

Why didn't you just respond to what I wrote, being mindful of the context of my statements?

I did, you have refused to reply though.

1) For the same reason you introduced the concept of removining skill training all together
2) For the same reason you introduced the idea that we are trying to remove skill training
3) Because I made a mistake while typing the sentence out, and I didn't get to edit my post before I noticed it. I stand by it though.
4) I haven't deducted how you came up with it. I'm simply assuming, just as you have been, which have caused points 1) and 2)
5)I haven't at all. This is you twisting my words in an attempt to further derail the conversation.

I will ask once again, to explain your point without creating a logic loophole. (IE. It's bad and broken because it's bad and broken.....)

Highschool debate. Man it's been years.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-05-30 22:11:17 UTC
Gods...... this thread, AGAIN....

Use the search function to find out how many times this idea has been completely shot down.
Hint: it's a lot.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Col Arran
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-05-30 22:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Col Arran
Erufen Rito wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
No. We can agree that having an argument like 5 year olds is not something I'm interested in doing.
So why did you take that route, then?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about it being about training speed?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about it being about attributes?
Why did you inject the fallacious ad hominem about it being bad because I “came up with it”?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about how I “came up with it”?
Why did you inject the fallacious strawman about the topic also being my invention?

Why didn't you just respond to what I wrote, being mindful of the context of my statements?

I did, you have refused to reply though.

1) For the same reason you introduced the concept of removining skill training all together
2) For the same reason you introduced the idea that we are trying to remove skill training
3) Because I made a mistake while typing the sentence out, and I didn't get to edit my post before I noticed it. I stand by it though.
4) I haven't deducted how you came up with it. I'm simply assuming, just as you have been, which have caused points 1) and 2)
5)I haven't at all. This is you twisting my words in an attempt to further derail the conversation.

I will ask once again, to explain your point without creating a logic loophole. (IE. It's bad and broken because it's bad and broken.....)

Highschool debate. Man it's been years.


Give up you will never win against Tippia. I respect them but honestly they will hammer you over the head with the same argument no matter how many times you answer it. You will be here for at least 5 more pages if you keep responding. I respect their arguments and they are very well spoken but bring up anything about change and its an immediate shutdown mentality of "This is how its always been we had to deal with it everyone else should have to as well".

Leave now while you're slightly behind and save yourself the trouble.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2014-05-30 22:17:00 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
I did, you have refused to reply though.
I replied, though. You just didn't understand the answer because you were too tangled up in your fallacies.

Quote:
1) For the same reason you introduced the concept of removining skill training all together
2) For the same reason you introduced the idea that we are trying to remove skill training
3) Because I made a mistake while typing the sentence out, and I didn't get to edit my post before I noticed it. I stand by it though.
4) I haven't deducted how you came up with it. I'm simply assuming, just as you have been, which have caused points 1) and 2)
5)I haven't at all. This is you twisting my words in an attempt to further derail the conversation.

1. No, you did not. You did it because you failed to read what I wrote and assumed it was about something else. By the way, it's not my concept. It's a very obvious result of having SP remaps and has been discussed roughly 80 baijillion times before.
2. No, you did not. You did it because you failed to read what I wrote and assumed it was about something else. By the way, the reason I'm saying you are is because you are, whether you understand it or not. Skills being effectively removed is a direct result of having SP remaps as has been discussed roughly 80 baijillion times before.
3. Riiiight…
4. That's the problem: you're assuming things rather than reading what's being said.
5. Yes you have. You're assuming that what's being discussed is not what I'm discussing even though I wasn't the one who brought it up…

Quote:
I will ask once again, to explain your point without creating a logic loophole.
…and I'll give you the answer once again, knowing full well that you won't read it this time either.

An SP remap bypasses game mechanics and game balance. This bypass effectively removes the mechanic and its connected balance from the game, specifically the entire skilling mechanic and everything related to it, including the attributes that balance how quickly you acquire those skills. Tie it to PLEX and you have a paid-for ability to skip game mechanics.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#45 - 2014-05-30 22:26:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
I did, you have refused to reply though.
I replied, though. You just didn't understand the answer because you were too tangled up in your fallacies.

Quote:
1) For the same reason you introduced the concept of removining skill training all together
2) For the same reason you introduced the idea that we are trying to remove skill training
3) Because I made a mistake while typing the sentence out, and I didn't get to edit my post before I noticed it. I stand by it though.
4) I haven't deducted how you came up with it. I'm simply assuming, just as you have been, which have caused points 1) and 2)
5)I haven't at all. This is you twisting my words in an attempt to further derail the conversation.

1. No, you did not. You did it because you failed to read what I wrote and assumed it was about something else. By the way, it's not my concept. It's a very obvious result of having SP remaps and has been discussed roughly 80 baijillion times before.
2. No, you did not. You did it because you failed to read what I wrote and assumed it was about something else. By the way, the reason I'm saying you are is because you are, whether you understand it or not. Skills being effectively removed is a direct result of having SP remaps as has been discussed roughly 80 baijillion times before.
3. Riiiight…
4. That's the problem: you're assuming things rather than reading what's being said.
5. Yes you have. You're assuming that what's being discussed is not what I'm discussing even though I wasn't the one who brought it up…

Quote:
I will ask once again, to explain your point without creating a logic loophole.
…and I'll give you the answer once again, knowing full well that you won't read it this time either.

An SP remap bypasses game mechanics and game balance. This bypass effectively removes the mechanic and its connected balance from the game, specifically the entire skilling mechanic and everything related to it, including the attributes that balance how quickly you acquire those skills. Tie it to PLEX and you have a paid-for ability to skip game mechanics.

Oh I read it. I found the exact same loop you keep using to say nothing. You are simply saying it's broken because it's broken. You havent explained how or why. You haven't even show any reasoning as to what is breaking in the first place.

And here is where the "No U" starts.
1)If it were a very obvious result, I would've seen it too, and I would've been in agreement. But it isn't. It's a posibility, sure, but it's not the only other alternative.
2)I read what you said, and i found a loop within your logic. Your argument is invalid, because you are utilizing your argument to define your argument.
3) "It's a bad idea because if you can come here and say it's a bad idea, and not elaborate on why so can I" was what I originally wanted to convey. Lost in translation and dealing with stupid people at work. I like my end result better though.
4)You are assuming things as well. See: you want skill training removal.
5)You were the first person who say anything about removing skill training. Was this your OC and brainchild? I don't care. you brough tit up.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2014-05-30 22:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Erufen Rito wrote:
Oh I read it. I found the exact same loop you keep using to say nothing. You are simply saying it's broken because it's broken.
So you didn't read it, then, and you're inserting a nonsensical strawman to fill in the gap.
Or are you just not familiar what it means to bypass game mechanics? There's a very common and dirty word for it in game circles…

Quote:
1)If it were a very obvious result, I would've seen it too, and I would've been in agreement. But it isn't. It's a posibility, sure, but it's not the only other alternative.
2)I read what you said, and i found a loop within your logic. Your argument is invalid, because you are utilizing your argument to define your argument.
3) "It's a bad idea because if you can come here and say it's a bad idea, and not elaborate on why so can I" was what I originally wanted to convey. Lost in translation and dealing with stupid people at work. I like my end result better though.
4)You are assuming things as well. See: you want skill training removal.
5)You were the first person who say anything about removing skill training. Was this your OC and brainchild? I don't care. you brough tit up.

1. It's the only alternative. If you haven't seen it, it's because you haven't been looking. Just think for a second about what it means if SP no longer are tied to skills but can be redistributed freely.
2. Prove it.
3. It still means you scuttled your entire argument. So try again.
4. No, that's just yet another strawman you've just made up.
5. No, I'm not, and as anyone who has seen this topic before can attest, it pops up pretty much instantly once you actually stop to think.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#47 - 2014-05-30 22:33:55 UTC
Quote:
An SP remap bypasses game mechanics and game balance. This bypass effectively removes the mechanic and its connected balance from the game, specifically the entire skilling mechanic and everything related to it, including the attributes that balance how quickly you acquire those skills. Tie it to PLEX and you have a paid-for ability to skip game mechanics.00


How is this unclear? Buying remaps breaks balance due to tossing choices and any different skill gain rates out of the window.

Quote:

1)If it were a very obvious result, I would've seen it too, and I would've been in agreement. But it isn't. It's a posibility, sure, but it's not the only other alternative.


Ah, there's the problem. You assumed you'd see the problem, but you're wrong, as you clearly don't.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#48 - 2014-05-30 22:40:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Oh I read it. I found the exact same loop you keep using to say nothing. You are simply saying it's broken because it's broken.
So you didn't read it, then. Or are you just familiar what it means to bypass game mechanics?

Quote:
1)If it were a very obvious result, I would've seen it too, and I would've been in agreement. But it isn't. It's a posibility, sure, but it's not the only other alternative.
2)I read what you said, and i found a loop within your logic. Your argument is invalid, because you are utilizing your argument to define your argument.
3) "It's a bad idea because if you can come here and say it's a bad idea, and not elaborate on why so can I" was what I originally wanted to convey. Lost in translation and dealing with stupid people at work. I like my end result better though.
4)You are assuming things as well. See: you want skill training removal.
5)You were the first person who say anything about removing skill training. Was this your OC and brainchild? I don't care. you brough tit up.

1. It's the only alternative. If you haven't seen it, it's because you haven't been looking. Just think for a second about what it means if SP no longer are tied to skills but can be redistributed freely.
2. Prove it.
3. It still means you scuttled your entire argument. So try again.
4. No, that's just yet another strawman you've just made up.
5. No, I'm not, and as anyone who has seen this topic before can attest, it pops up pretty much instantly once you actually stop to think.


1)It isn't. If you have 1m SP, you can only relocate 1m SP. If you want more SP, you have to train for it, thus forcing you to train anyway.
2)"An SP remap bypasses game mechanics and game balance. This bypass effectively removes the mechanic and its connected balance [...]including the attributes that balance how quickly you acquire those skills..." No it doesn't. If you chose 2 atribute sets to train, max out atributes and implants for those, and train only those skills, you can only get so much SP before you have to either change, or SP remap. Which would't be marginally different than having a mix of atributes training within the same plan.
3)It simply means that you are not saying anything meanungful or contribuiting to the conversation. If this is a foreign concept, I can live with that.
4) Please, show me where in this topic anyone before you said anything about removing skills. And don't try to insult my intelligence by quoting the OP.
5)Your answer does not match my statement. I can't reply to this.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#49 - 2014-05-30 22:42:48 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Quote:
An SP remap bypasses game mechanics and game balance. This bypass effectively removes the mechanic and its connected balance from the game, specifically the entire skilling mechanic and everything related to it, including the attributes that balance how quickly you acquire those skills. Tie it to PLEX and you have a paid-for ability to skip game mechanics.00


How is this unclear? Buying remaps breaks balance due to tossing choices and any different skill gain rates out of the window.

.

How does it break anything? This is the beautiful thing about math. 1+1=2, each and every time. Have any one of you run the numbers? I mean, this whole fear of change is based on "They get to do it faster, hence is broken". They don't. They really don't.

It'd be moronic to have it enabled permanently on the account, and that much I can agree with. Having someone be able of changing the purpose of the character at will, every day, would be pretty stupid.
But setting limits seems to be an alien concept.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-05-30 22:54:58 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Atributes affect skill training time, but that's about it.


So a ~40% difference in skill training time is insignificant?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2014-05-30 22:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Erufen Rito wrote:
t isn't. If you have 1m SP, you can only relocate 1m SP. If you want more SP, you have to train for it, thus forcing you to train anyway.
Think a liiiiittle more. What is it you're training for, exactly?
Oh, and that's another strawman you're trying to sneak in: where did you get the idea that you didn't have to train?

Quote:
No it doesn't. If you chose 2 atribute sets to train, max out atributes and implants for those, and train only those skills, you can only get so much SP before you have to either change, or SP remap. Which would't be marginally different than having a mix of atributes training within the same plan.
…and the loop is? Also, are you seriously that oblivious to how what you're describing effectively removes attributes? You even start out by describing the actual effect that does this. I mean, I can (somewhat) understand when you don't read what I write, but now you're skipping over what you write yourself. Ugh

Quote:
It simply means that you are not saying anything meanungful or contribuiting to the conversation.
No, it means you have no proper argument and have to resort to fallacies and abuse to fill in the gap. It means you can't or don't want to address the actual points being made and are trying to invalidate them with a sweeping, unproven, and in every way irrelevant statement because it is the only way for you to get out of the hole you've found yourself in. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Quote:
Please, show me where in this topic anyone before you said anything about removing skills.
You realise that this topic is nearly 5 years old, right? It appeared literally seconds after the “unused SP pool” was revealed for the first time.

Quote:
Your answer does not match my statement. I can't reply to this.
Learn to read. You made a claim; I denied it, and described the natural source of the occurrence.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2014-05-30 23:04:33 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
How does it break anything? This is the beautiful thing about math. 1+1=2, each and every time. Have any one of you run the numbers? I mean, this whole fear of change is based on "They get to do it faster, hence is broken". They don't. They really don't.
More strawmen. What makes you think that it's broken because anyone does it faster? What makes you think it's a fear of change?

And no, the problem is that you assume it's about “running the numbers”, when it is actually about what those numbers represent. It's not about how 1+1=2, it's about how the only thing that matters is who has more — allocation (which is what it is all about right now) is no longer a factor. Or, worse, allocation is no longer a factor if you pay for it in spite of it being the crucial thing for everyone else. This is why it breaks things and becomes a P2W scheme.

Quote:
But setting limits seems to be an alien concept.
The only limit that is acceptable is zero. Everything else is massively exploitable and breaks things. Breaking it “only a little” by setting the limit to 1 is still breaking things. For no reason.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#53 - 2014-05-30 23:17:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Think a liiiiittle more. What is it you're training for, exactly?
Oh, and that's another strawman you're trying to sneak in: where did you get the idea that you didn't have to train?
Uh...what? No seriously. What strawman? I mean, the notion you keep shoving of "remove skill training" has yet another hidden meaning? I am now sort of confused you see...

Tippia wrote:
…and the loop is? Also, are you seriously that oblivious to how what you're describing effectively removes attributes? You even start out by describing the actual effect that does this. I mean, I can (somewhat) understand when you don't read what I write, but now you're skipping over what you write yourself. Ugh
"It's broken beacuse it's broken" Can you (somewhat) see that too?

Tippia wrote:

No, it means you have no proper argument and have to resort to fallacies and abuse to fill in the gap. It means you can't or don't want to address the actual points being made and are trying to invalidate them with a sweeping, unproven, and in every way irrelevant statement because it is the only way for you to get out of the hole you've found yourself in. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
Oh my argument is long gone. You've managed to derail this so far that the OP is now secondary. Keep spewing about fallacies and strawman. You have made NO points whatsoever, outside of "it's broken because it's broken". Unproven? Have you run the math? Because it doesn't sound like you have. Numbers don't lie.

Tippia wrote:
You realise that this topic is nearly 5 years old, right? It appeared literally seconds after the “unused SP pool” was revealed for the first time.
It's 2019 already, or is the forum wrong? It's irrelevant when you first heard of this topic. You keep saying the only alternative is to remove skill training all together, but conveniently leave the "because reasons" part out, that would simply finish whatever it is you are trying to prove.

Tippia wrote:
Learn to read. You made a claim; I denied it, and described the natural source of the occurrence.

Learn propper sentence structure. Your rebutal came out of context. "You were" and "No, I'm not" belong on different pages.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#54 - 2014-05-30 23:22:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Atributes affect skill training time, but that's about it.


So a ~40% difference in skill training time is insignificant?

I can see a guy with no implants and no atributes, meaning a 19/19 on either combination, 57.89% below someone with a 30/30 combination.

But that is the most extreme of scenarios. Also, it's not something that isn't happening right now.

On a normal setup, like myself, with not so great implants and a general atribute distribution, it's a mere 7.14% faster.

I fail to see your point.

Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
How does it break anything? This is the beautiful thing about math. 1+1=2, each and every time. Have any one of you run the numbers? I mean, this whole fear of change is based on "They get to do it faster, hence is broken". They don't. They really don't.
More strawmen. What makes you think that it's broken because anyone does it faster? What makes you think it's a fear of change?

And no, the problem is that you assume it's about “running the numbers”, when it is actually about what those numbers represent. It's not about how 1+1=2, it's about how the only thing that matters is who has more — allocation (which is what it is all about right now) is no longer a factor. Or, worse, allocation is no longer a factor if you pay for it in spite of it being the crucial thing for everyone else. This is why it breaks things and becomes a P2W scheme.

Quote:
But setting limits seems to be an alien concept.
The only limit that is acceptable is zero. Everything else is massively exploitable and breaks things. Breaking it “only a little” by setting the limit to 1 is still breaking things. For no reason.

Blahstrawmenblah. Quit twisting my words. You know exactly what I said, for it is a mere post or two away. I like the effort you are putting into making it seem that I'm contradicting myself though, or that somehow your bad ideas are mine. It is fear of change, because you can't provide a convincing argument as to how or why anything breaks. You just claim it does.

I don't agree with that. I think a fair limit would be 1.

Now, I can see that you think the concept is aiming to distribute them like candy, and that's an easy mistake to make since it's not clear on the OP. So I will agree with you here and say that hading out SP reallocation like candy is a bad idea.

But that's not what I'm arguing.

I know what the numbers represent, because I've run them. Have you? I'd recomend you do.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2014-05-30 23:31:41 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Uh...what? No seriously. What strawman? I mean, the notion you keep shoving of "remove skill training" has yet another hidden meaning?
The strawman that I'm talking about the removal of skill training. I'm not. I'm saying that SP remaps remove skills.

I am now sort of confused you see...

Quote:
"It's broken beacuse it's broken" Can you (somewhat) see that too?
Strawman. Answer the question: what is the loop? And can you seriously not see how what you're describing effectively removes attributes?

Quote:
Oh my argument is long gone. You've managed to derail this so far that the OP is now secondary.
No, the OP is still the topic I'm discussing. This is exactly why your insistence on using fallacies is bad for you: because you manage to throw yourself off topic so completely that you lose track of what's being discussed.

Quote:
It's 2019 already, or is the forum wrong? It's irrelevant when you first heard of this topic.
No, it is not. When I first head of this topic is entirely relevant to when someone noticed that it's actually about effectively removing skills.

Quote:
Learn propper sentence structure. Your rebutal came out of context.
No.
Statement: “You were the first person who say anything about removing skill training.”
Response: “No, I'm not”.

Nothing improper or out of context about it. You're just wrong, which is something completely different. I've never even mentioned a removal of skill training — that's something you've invented. The removal of skills (especially as a result of SP remaps or respecs ), for its part, is something that appeared years ago when CCP introduced the ability to have unassigned SP sloshing around.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-05-30 23:35:20 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
CCP could set a hard limit on the amount of SP remaps you could have done.

They already have and it's never changing, so ******* get used to it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2014-05-30 23:37:42 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Blahstrawmenblah. Quit twisting my words.
How did I twist your words?

Quote:
I don't agree with that. I think a fair limit would be 1.
Fair to whom and by what measure? And how do you work around the exploitation this allows for older players?

Quote:
Now, I can see that you think the concept is aiming to distribute them like candy, and that's an easy mistake to make since it's not clear on the OP.
I'm not responding to the OP beyond pointing out that what he's asking for is unnecessary — the game has already solved his problem.

Quote:
I know what the numbers represent, because I've run them.
…so you don't understand what the numbers represent since you still incorrectly think it has anything to do with “running them”. I'll repeat another question that you failed to answer: what is it you're training for?
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#58 - 2014-05-30 23:45:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
-snip-
Quit arguing. I wasn't around when this first concept came up, and it is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

Riddle me this.

This bad idea goes live. For 1 Plex, I get a once in a lifetime chance to remap my SP.

I make a new account, and I train every single rank 1x in game to level V. For the sake of this, let's say there are 10 Rank 1x skills in game.

As I've stated before, each Rank 1x trained to level V will yield 4,352,880 SP.

I have remapped to have perfect attributes to train those skills, and a head of +5 implants, that would mean that my atribute pair is at 30/30, and my SP/hour is 2700.

I now have 43,528,800 SP.

How long has it have taken me to finish training those Rank 1x skills to V and obtain 43,528,800 SP?
With your current SP/Hour rate, how long would it have taken you to get the same ammount of SP?
Is the difference that worrying?
How is this breaking anything, and taking away skills at all?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Marsha Mallow
#59 - 2014-05-30 23:47:39 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
How is this breaking anything, and taking away skills at all?

We pay subs to access the game, not grind SP. It's a secondary (non-grind-levelling) mechanic to reward players for their loyalty.

It's not for sale.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#60 - 2014-05-30 23:49:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Blahstrawmenblah. Quit twisting my words.
How did I twist your words?

Quote:
I don't agree with that. I think a fair limit would be 1.
Fair to whom and by what measure? And how do you work around the exploitation this allows for older players?

Quote:
Now, I can see that you think the concept is aiming to distribute them like candy, and that's an easy mistake to make since it's not clear on the OP.
I'm not responding to the OP beyond pointing out that what he's asking for is unnecessary — the game has already solved his problem.

Quote:
I know what the numbers represent, because I've run them.
…so you don't understand what the numbers represent since you still incorrectly think it has anything to do with “running them”. I'll repeat another question that you failed to answer: what is it you're training for?

You said that the only acceptable limit would be 0. Acceptable by whom?
Exploit? If you are allowed 1 chance to remap your skills, what is it that you are exploiting?
I have about 24m SP in industry that I'd rather use in something else, but currently can't, because the game has not provided a way to work with this.

If your question is trying to reach for the reason: Because I'm polishing my combat capabilities.
If your question is trying to unveil my queue, I believe I have Marauders IV right now.
If your question wants to unveil my motive: Because I've run out of things I'm interested in training for.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165