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Improve Hi Sec Wars

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#41 - 2014-05-30 15:33:55 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.



All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.


POS's can be decced. they are no longer protected by concord.

suicide gank their miners if they arent in a player corp. dec them if the are.

whats the problem?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-05-30 15:35:25 UTC
I can't help but think that a neutral logi assisting an at war pilot should be tantamount to a declaration of war by the logi on behalf of the logis corp (with associated cost). If the logi pilot doesn't stop repping then a concord response would be appropriate as they are attacking the other corp before their 24 hour wardec period has elapsed.
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#43 - 2014-05-30 15:36:55 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:

How about a trade: neutral logis get CONCORDed for interfering in a wardec, and all your industrial alts get flagged as WTs whenever hauling through empire? Fair's fair and all.


How is that I trade? The more resources you force into the corp the better.

Sadly forcing people's non-combat ships and PoS-alts into a corp is not possible. Even if CCP wanted to, its simply to not tell them who owns the account and pay it with plex.

Forcing logis into corps is possible, by simply concording them when they are illegally engaging.

Forcing the war dec corp to have a bare minimum to fight over by taking an ISK deposit they only get back if they can force a sourrender, is possible.
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#44 - 2014-05-30 15:39:13 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I can't help but think that a neutral logi assisting an at war pilot should be tantamount to a declaration of war by the logi on behalf of the logis corp (with associated cost). If the logi pilot doesn't stop repping then a concord response would be appropriate as they are attacking the other corp before their 24 hour wardec period has elapsed.


So by having 50 out of corp logis I can make another corp have to pay for 50 wars in order to be able to defend themselves?

That is if possible even less effective than the current system.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#45 - 2014-05-30 15:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.


indeed, friends are overpowered. /joke

luckily in this case there are various counters to logi

anyone can shoot them when they go suspect. u can bring friends from outside the war to blap them, or u can bring alts in a celestis/blackbird and e-war them (edit - also geddons). Or u can fight in a very public place, some ppl do shoot suspects.

bringing more logi is not the only counter to logi.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#46 - 2014-05-30 15:44:37 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

- There is no way to make a system for who won what war without making it either arbitrary or decided by the players. If its arbitrary its not going to work, different corps attack eachother for different reasons, its not about the isk war all the time. If players decide their own objective then naturally they will give themselves the easiest, or eachother the hardest, possible objectives to win the war and get their 100mil iskies. the idea just wont work.

i like the idea of giving defenders something to achieve to end a dec early. my own suggestion was a structure bash.


The one who surrenders (or chickens out by stopping the paying of bills) didn't win.

Extremely simple.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-05-30 15:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Daichi Yamato wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.


indeed, friends are overpowered. /joke

luckily in this case there are various counters to logi

anyone can shoot them when they go suspect. u can bring friends from outside the war to blap them, or u can bring alts in a celestis/blackbird and e-war them (edit - also geddons). Or u can fight in a very public place, some ppl do shoot suspects.

bringing more logi is not the only counter to logi.



Can you shoot them when they undock? Any other combat participant would be shootable upon the expiration of their undock timer.

Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?

Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to utilize a resource in a war that hasn't actually been committed?

OGB is broken in a conceptually similar way, and is being nerfed for the same reasons: The optimal strategy is to not commit the resource, and this is regarded as broken.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#48 - 2014-05-30 15:47:15 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.


indeed, friends are overpowered. /joke

luckily in this case there are various counters to logi

anyone can shoot them when they go suspect. u can bring friends from outside the war to blap them, or u can bring alts in a celestis/blackbird and e-war them (edit - also geddons). Or u can fight in a very public place, some ppl do shoot suspects.

bringing more logi is not the only counter to logi.



Can you shoot them when they undock?

Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?

Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to avoid being committed until they actually engage?



What about off corp intel covops? What about off corp logistics (I mean real logistics, not logi ships)? What about awoxers?

All of these and more can safely tip the scale. Why do you hate on logis so much?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-05-30 15:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Walter Hart White wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.


indeed, friends are overpowered. /joke

luckily in this case there are various counters to logi

anyone can shoot them when they go suspect. u can bring friends from outside the war to blap them, or u can bring alts in a celestis/blackbird and e-war them (edit - also geddons). Or u can fight in a very public place, some ppl do shoot suspects.

bringing more logi is not the only counter to logi.



Can you shoot them when they undock?

Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?

Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to avoid being committed until they actually engage?



What about off corp intel covops? What about off corp logistics (I mean real logistics, not logi ships)? What about awoxers?




Really, what about them? The first two aren't combatants, so it's an apple-oranges situation. Awoxing is sneaky, but is, mechanically, much fairer than neutral logi: You could shoot the awoxxer on undock if you wanted to. You don't have to wait for them to throw the switch.

Their betrayal is a Human Resources problem, not a game mechanics problem.

Quote:
All of these and more can safely tip the scale. Why do you hate on logis so much?


Really, thinking all combatants should have the same engagement rules is "hating on logis"? There's really no conceivable mechanical solution to off-corp intel or hauling, so there's no sense in wasting any time or effort on a problem that simply has no fix.

By contrast, neutral logi involves an actual combatant, and has a VERY simple mechanical solution that simply puts it on the same footing as every other combatant.

Why are you so afraid of having your logi on the same footing as the rest of the combatants?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2014-05-30 15:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:


The one who surrenders (or chickens out by stopping the paying of bills) didn't win.

Extremely simple.


so the aggressors have to pay for the war, and have to keep paying for the war forever or lose their 100mil
how is that not hilariously broken when the defenders can just wait in station or corp hop?

if u want a serious discussion on this topic then u really need to get past the butthurt. Wardecs, even for griefing, is a legitimate mechanic in a game where player conflict is a design goal. try to think of a way to make wardecs more engaging for all involved or gtfo.

Quote:
Can you shoot them when they undock?
Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?
Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to avoid being committed until they actually engage?


CCP tried making ppl in fleets share aggro. that didnt work.

How would u make a mechanic where someone is shootable by association? Most ppl identify reps by looking at player history and backgrounds. are u suggesting they should make a mechanic where if a corp decs someone, the game makes a check through all the member corp history and killboards and makes anyone related to the corp shootable? because thats the only way that would work.

CONCORDING logi in a war or a duel is not going to happen. its part of the games ethos to have secret allies and sneaky tactics. CCP deliberately made logi a possibility in duels, it will always be deliberately made possible in wars.

If u are that frustrated with logi being invincible upto the point it interferes with a dec, then goto low sec when u get decced.

OGB is broken. and they are trying to fix it so that its on grid. but they are NOT going to make it a concordable offense. it will be like logi but with grid wide range. in fact, it may not even go suspect for all we know.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-05-30 15:58:31 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Sadly forcing people's non-combat ships and PoS-alts into a corp is not possible. Even if CCP wanted to, its simply to not tell them who owns the account and pay it with plex.

Eliminate wallet transfers during war, flag every contract issued from WT as causing the receiver to become a WT. Flag every contract to WT as including the issuer as a WT. Make the contracts flash red and allow them to be filtered out by default so that no one else has to deal with this silliness.

If it's unfair that one resource can be used in safety during a war, then it's unfair that any resource can be used the same way.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#52 - 2014-05-30 16:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same]
2. points - use them
3. Station games are the bane of all sec space.


1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock.
2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament.
3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.


1. which is why you point them and then switch primary to the logi.
2. don't die and/or bring more points.
3. station games still suck ... which is why engaging on station is stupid.


edit -- seriously, worse than logi is neutral OGB.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-05-30 16:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Daichi Yamato wrote:


CONCORDING logi in a war or a duel is not going to happen. its part of the games ethos to have secret allies and sneaky tactics. CCP deliberately made logi a possibility in duels, it will always be deliberately made possible in wars.



Risk/Reward is a far greater part of the game's ethos and, as already noted, OGB is being nerfed for much the same reason: It provides something for nothing by way of the "optimal" gameplay being a complete minimization of risk.

It's an outlier, and it's inconsistent with the rest of the rules of the game. I can't have a "Secret ally" in an offense-oriented ship show up and engage my wartargets, but for some reason it's okay with logi because reasons.

Quote:
If u are that frustrated with logi being invincible upto the point it interferes with a dec, then goto low sec when u get decced.


I don't get decced and I mostly live in low sec. I just don't have a stake in maintaining a clearly broken mechanic, so it's easy for me to recognize that it's broken.

Similarly, if you want to utilize secret neutrals in a battle, you could come to low. Blink

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Velicitia
XS Tech
#54 - 2014-05-30 16:08:34 UTC
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.



All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.



hint -- you can issue your own declarations of war.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-05-30 16:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Velicitia wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same]
2. points - use them
3. Station games are the bane of all sec space.


1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock.
2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament.
3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.


1. which is why you point them and then switch primary to the logi.
2. don't die and/or bring more points.
3. station games still suck ... which is why engaging on station is stupid.




All of the conceptual workarounds in the world aren't the same thing as an actual reason for the mechanic itself being "good", nor are they a reason for why "fixing" the mechanic would be bad.

Is it important to the game that neutrals be able to join a battle between war targets?

If yes: Is it important to the game that they only be able to do so defensively? Why?

I don't really see a downside to forcing logi into corp. I see plenty of reasons why people who utilize neutrals would hate it, but I don't see it being anything but beneficial to the game as a whole.


Quote:
edit -- seriously, worse than logi is neutral OGB.


That's already being fixed, though. Neutral logi has many of the same conceptual problems as OGB, and should be fixed for the same conceptual reasons.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#56 - 2014-05-30 16:13:55 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Risk/Reward is a far greater part of the game's ethos and, as already noted, OGB is being nerfed for much the same reason: It provides something for nothing by way of the "optimal" gameplay being a complete minimization of risk.

It's an outlier, and it's inconsistent with the rest of the rules of the game. I can't have a "Secret ally" in an offense-oriented ship show up and engage my wartargets, but for some reason it's okay with logi because reasons.


If logi worked whilst off grid, that would be comparable to command boosts. trying to make command boosts only work on grid is actually bringing it closer to the current mechanics of logi.

technically its not ok for logi to only be vulnerable once its started repping. If there was a 100% fool proof mechanical way for the server to identify a logi that is going to interfere with a war or duel, then i expect CCP would implement that.

However, the server cannot distinguish between logi that is going to interfere from logi that is just passing by. The only way the server knows a logi has 'evil' intent is after the fact.

It would be more possible with the fleet mechanic, but eve players just invite randoms to fleet (incursions), making them take aggro (i mean suspect) by association and then blap them with alts who arent in the fleet..

the current logi suspect system is as good as its going to get. The risk reward ethos is somewhat maintained by the suspect mechanic. but i agree, its not perfect.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#57 - 2014-05-30 16:17:58 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.



All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.



hint -- you can issue your own declarations of war.


right so you need to wardec another corp because of a lame game mechanism, dont forget it takes 24 hours to kick in. its a flaw in the wardeccing system. period it should be adressed by CCP not by players with half working solutions.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#58 - 2014-05-30 16:25:42 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.



All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.



hint -- you can issue your own declarations of war.


right so you need to wardec another corp because of a lame game mechanism, dont forget it takes 24 hours to kick in. its a flaw in the wardeccing system. period it should be adressed by CCP not by players with half working solutions.


this subject line was about POS's and mining fleets as well btw.

if u knew that then, how would u tie a corp with a POS in to a wardeccing corp that has alts that use the POS so that u can dec the POS for free and/or without a 24 waiting period?

with me i just use the 24 hour waiting period to identify any soft targets and dec them before the incoming dec goes live. thats if i can find any of course.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Velenia Ankletickler
Silverflames
#59 - 2014-05-30 16:30:59 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
so the aggressors have to pay for the war, and have to keep paying for the war forever or lose their 100mil
how is that not hilariously broken when the defenders can just wait in station or corp hop?


The defender corp hopping is chicken out and the aggressor wins (leaving someone behind so the corp doesn't close would make this less simple to implement. A few quirks to work out in order to implement it in code doesn't mean its a bad suggestion though, and making a rule about how many characters can leave a corp before it is chicken shouldn't be impossible).

However, giving the ability to strike back a little and the 100mill ISK if they can make the agressor just give up, suddenly adds reasons to not just corp hop.

As for aggressor and the 100mill, if they don't think they can win, they shouldn't dec the war to begin with.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Wardecs, even for griefing, is a legitimate mechanic in a game where player conflict is a design goal. try to think of a way to make wardecs more engaging for all involved


How is anything I have suggested makign for less engaging wars in anyway?

Sure, some wars might not happen if there is suddenly risk for the aggressor, but Eve isn't about risk free.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#60 - 2014-05-30 16:39:38 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Velenia Ankletickler wrote:


1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock.
2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament.
3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.


1. which is why you point them and then switch primary to the logi.
2. don't die and/or bring more points.
3. station games still suck ... which is why engaging on station is stupid.




All of the conceptual workarounds in the world aren't the same thing as an actual reason for the mechanic itself being "good", nor are they a reason for why "fixing" the mechanic would be bad.

Is it important to the game that neutrals be able to join a battle between war targets?

If yes: Is it important to the game that they only be able to do so defensively? Why?

I don't really see a downside to forcing logi into corp. I see plenty of reasons why people who utilize neutrals would hate it, but I don't see it being anything but beneficial to the game as a whole.


I'm not saying the mechanic is "good" ... but that it's "not bad", given that there are mechanical considerations that need to be made (i.e. "logi that just happens to be flying through that grid").

It's important that neutrals can join in -- because fighting dirty is kind of "the point" (see: hot drops)
It's not important whether they can do so defensively -- it just happens to be the only way to not get Concordokken.

I don't particularly care if logi are forced into corp ... but the OP's idea of "well, they don't have a valid reason to be helping that neutral-to-them pilot who happens to be my WT, so they should get Concordokken" is terrible.

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Quote:
edit -- seriously, worse than logi is neutral OGB.


That's already being fixed, though. Neutral logi has many of the same conceptual problems as OGB, and should be fixed for the same conceptual reasons.


"Neutral" logi is on grid, and can be dealt with. OGB is probably orbiting a POS gun or otherwise "just far enough outside the bubble to give boosts".

(stupid quote rules).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia