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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2921 - 2014-05-30 13:22:12 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

There are no good reason to have so strong bonus on webs, if Vindi NEED 90% webs to be usefull there i NO other battleship thats usable with hybrids! It already have to strongest dmg bonus (not counting "marauder" 4guns/100% dmg) on 8 turrets along with the strongest tracking bonus.

Vindicater keeping 90% web strenght is just another case of devs not playing the game they try to balance...


No one said any of those things.

It has a 90% web because it's a pirate ship, and that is it's unique niche. That's what pirate ships do.

This is just another example of people thinking their personal experience with something is the defining experience for everyone else too. But it's not. Unlike you, CCP has the math, and they made their choice. If it were anywhere close to as overpowered as people would like to claim, it would have more of an effect than it really does.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#2922 - 2014-05-30 13:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

There are no good reason to have so strong bonus on webs, if Vindi NEED 90% webs to be usefull there i NO other battleship thats usable with hybrids! It already have to strongest dmg bonus (not counting "marauder" 4guns/100% dmg) on 8 turrets along with the strongest tracking bonus.

Vindicater keeping 90% web strenght is just another case of devs not playing the game they try to balance...


No one said any of those things.

It has a 90% web because it's a pirate ship, and that is it's unique niche. That's what pirate ships do.

This is just another example of people thinking their personal experience with something is the defining experience for everyone else too. But it's not. Unlike you, CCP has the math, and they made their choice. If it were anywhere close to as overpowered as people would like to claim, it would have more of an effect than it really does.


If the Vindi was introduced today, without the web bonus 99% of the people advocating to keep the web strenght would come in the pants for this new powerfull ship. Its the highest DPS subcap ship, its only 1 ship that does more dps and can still dock, even those (dread) need to be siege to do more than dps than a Vindi does.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2923 - 2014-05-30 13:33:08 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

If the Vindi was introduced today, without the web bonus 99% of the people advocating to keep the web strenght would come in the pants for this new powerfull ship. Its the highest DPS subcap ship, its only 1 ship that does more dps and can still dock, even those (dread) need to be siege to do more than 50% of the dps a Vindi does.


Yeah, Large Blasters are awesome.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2924 - 2014-05-30 13:34:46 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:


If the Vindi was introduced today, without the web bonus 99% of the people advocating to keep the web strenght would come in the pants for this new powerfull ship. Its the highest DPS subcap ship, its only 1 ship that does more dps and can still dock, even those (dread) need to be siege to do more than dps than a Vindi does.


It's the 2nd most. TFI's do more paper DPS. (It's a bit harder to apply the damage though.)
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#2925 - 2014-05-30 13:47:40 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:


If the Vindi was introduced today, without the web bonus 99% of the people advocating to keep the web strenght would come in the pants for this new powerfull ship. Its the highest DPS subcap ship, its only 1 ship that does more dps and can still dock, even those (dread) need to be siege to do more than dps than a Vindi does.


It's the 2nd most. TFI's do more paper DPS. (It's a bit harder to apply the damage though.)


T2 weapons+faction dmg mods (t2 for drones), and i somehow have Vindi 300ish DPS above
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2926 - 2014-05-30 13:51:14 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

T2 weapons+faction dmg mods (t2 for drones), and i somehow have Vindi 300ish DPS above


You're doing something wrong then. You may wish to check your skills.

No subcapital ship has as much paper dps as a TFI.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
stoicfaux
#2927 - 2014-05-30 14:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Kronos Rattlesnake with Torps and Heavy Drones. Granted, there are fitting, damage application, and damage projection issues to consider.

edit: Whoops, Vindi is still on top if you add drone DDAs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2928 - 2014-05-30 14:18:21 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Kronos Rattlesnake with Torps and Heavy Drones. Granted, there are fitting, damage application, and damage projection issues to consider.



My assumption with that statement was that they were talking about EFT, since they said they had the Vindi at 300 dps above the TFI.

The Kronos Rattlesnake, while it will have enormous paper DPS, isn't out just yet. Only a few more days though.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2929 - 2014-05-30 14:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
From memory I seem to remember (to my surprise) a madcap navy domi getting higher (>2k with all T2 and no implants), but that might have been a strictly T2 fit. and is utterly impractical.

Though there's no denying the vindi is a properly scary machine as it has good odds to get the actual damage down within the realms of a practical fit.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2930 - 2014-05-30 15:09:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Kronos Rattlesnake with Torps and Heavy Drones. Granted, there are fitting, damage application, and damage projection issues to consider.

edit: Whoops, Vindi is still on top if you add drone DDAs.


Yes. I did a bit of playing around in EFT (I don't normally EFT warrior), looks like the Vindi is actually capable of beating the TFI without implants with both in LOL fits. It's really close (50 DPS with both in pure Tech 2 using overheat). With implants (5%), the TFI comes out a bit ahead on overheat.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2931 - 2014-05-30 15:11:08 UTC
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
stoicfaux
#2932 - 2014-05-30 15:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?

Well, if you like sitting on stargates, this almost works:

DPS: 1,935 overheated
Range: <21.9km
Web: 50% out to 19.5km overheated
Tank: 91k overheated, 1,074 shield boost overheated for ~38 seconds.
TPs: 2.54 x target_sig, overheated.

Between the TPs and the Web, I'm thinking that Rage torps would actually work against a lot of things...

[Rattlesnake, Summer 33 torps]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo
[empty high slot]

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Ogre II x2

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2933 - 2014-05-30 15:30:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?



There are plenty. Big smile

It's getting a bit off topic though. To the original point, the Vindi has awesome DPS, but it's designed to fight at extremely close range.

All of the pirate battleships have a role, and the Vindi's role is to melt things at close range. The web bonus works extremely well in tandem with that. I don't consider it unbalanced, as the solution is not to get close to it under any circumstance.

Mach's have speed and agility bonuses which are just as powerful for their role as skirmishers. We'll have to see if the NM's AB bonus makes it as desirable. (The NM's powergrid allows some unusual fittings, if you play with it.) Projecting a 1000 DPS at 40-50 KM is nothing to laugh at.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2934 - 2014-05-30 16:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
For the Vindicator, if you're worried about range I would make sure to use a faction web. It's pricetag justifies the increased price of a faction module, especially a web.

I think True Sansha is the best. You can overheat it to get close to 20km range.

But please, oh please do not start the "I hate bonused webs!" thing again.


I have nothing against bonused webs, but I do have something against a single strength bonused web beeing stronger than 4 unbonused.


That's what bonused webs are, so don't try and be disingenuous about it. You do have a problem with bonused webs.

That argument has been made, and then some. Nevermind that it's pure hyperbole.

CCP's answer is "too bad, it stays". It's even hit the patch notes, for that matter, it's not changing now.

So can we please knock off the tearful advocacy in this thread already?


There are no good reason to have so strong bonus on webs, if Vindi NEED 90% webs to be usefull there i NO other battleship thats usable with hybrids! It already have to strongest dmg bonus (not counting "marauder" 4guns/100% dmg) on 8 turrets along with the strongest tracking bonus.

Vindicater keeping 90% web strenght is just another case of devs not playing the game they try to balance...


It is perfectly balanced.

realistically the webs are only a threat from 20km at most and you have to remember the ship is using large blasters. This ship is ment to be the most dangerous in your face brawler isk can buy. The best counter is to simply keep range. Oddly enough it is at its most fearsome when sheild fit.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2935 - 2014-05-30 16:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sniper Smith
baltec1 wrote:
It is perfectly balanced.

realistically the webs are only a threat from 20km at most and you have to remember the ship is using large blasters. This ship is ment to be the most dangerous in your face brawler isk can buy. The best counter is to simply keep range. Oddly enough it is at its most fearsome when sheild fit.

Indeed..

It kills anything within 20km.. and can do nothing about anything beyond that.. It's also neut sensitive.. So there are lots of counters..

It will be OP when swarms of Vindi's are killing everything in low and nullsec :p But they aren't.. they are useful only in some situations, fewer yet where it is isk efficient to commit such an expensive ship. But it's no more OP than a Mach always being able to dictate range, a Bhaal killing your cap, or anything else. It's just powerful, but not the end of Eve.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2936 - 2014-05-30 16:36:52 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It is perfectly balanced.

realistically the webs are only a threat from 20km at most and you have to remember the ship is using large blasters. This ship is ment to be the most dangerous in your face brawler isk can buy. The best counter is to simply keep range. Oddly enough it is at its most fearsome when sheild fit.

Indeed..

It kills anything within 20km.. and can do nothing about anything beyond that.. It's also neut sensitive.. So there are lots of counters..

It will be OP when swarms of Vindi's are killing everything in low and nullsec :p But they aren't.. they are useful only in some situations, fewer yet where it is isk efficient to commit **** an expensive ship. But it's no more OP than a Mach always being able to dictate range, a Bhaal killing your cap, or anything else. It's just powerful, but not the end of Eve.


Bingo, the numbers simply don't support the narrative the "nerf webs!" people claim.

The only thing broken about it is that someone in a Vindi slapped down their "leet solo PvP with links and snakes" frigate somewhere, and they think they shouldn't have died.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2937 - 2014-05-30 17:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?


Well, I am looking into anom ships at the moment for guristas space. Getting frigate warps speeds out of battleships is rather easy so that will help with the time spent in warp. Right now its a battle between the vindi and the mack. Right now I am gravitating towards a shield vindi with both mags and drone damage with a single web. I think I can even get away with just putting a shield buffer on.

I am also tempted with testing a rail vindi for level 3s to try and beat that 80 mil/hr mackTwisted
stoicfaux
#2938 - 2014-05-30 17:12:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?


Well, I am looking into anom ships at the moment for guristas space. Getting frigate warps speeds out of battleships is rather easy so that will help with the time spent in warp. Right now its a battle between the vindi and the mack. Right now I am gravitating towards a shield vindi with both mags and drone damage with a single web. I think I can even get away with just putting a shield buffer on.

Why not a Rattlesnake instead of a Vindi? TPs are effectively long range webs. Proper shield tank. Pure kinetic damage bonus. No falloff and range isn't an issue with cruise, plus T1/T2 ammo variability.

Quote:
I am also tempted with testing a rail vindi for level 3s to try and beat that 80 mil/hr mackTwisted

You mean mach, right? Please, tell me you mean mach.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2939 - 2014-05-30 17:15:46 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/#Range

New update to the drone changes, which are pertinent to the Rattlesnake.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2940 - 2014-05-30 17:28:38 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lol, this is educational, I have to say.

I wonder what other lol fits we can conjure up?


Well, I am looking into anom ships at the moment for guristas space. Getting frigate warps speeds out of battleships is rather easy so that will help with the time spent in warp. Right now its a battle between the vindi and the mack. Right now I am gravitating towards a shield vindi with both mags and drone damage with a single web. I think I can even get away with just putting a shield buffer on.

Why not a Rattlesnake instead of a Vindi? TPs are effectively long range webs. Proper shield tank. Pure kinetic damage bonus. No falloff and range isn't an issue with cruise, plus T1/T2 ammo variability.

Quote:
I am also tempted with testing a rail vindi for level 3s to try and beat that 80 mil/hr mackTwisted

You mean mach, right? Please, tell me you mean mach.



Yes mach, damn abrivations.

As for the rattle, it could be possible for level 3s. Slap on the rapid heavies, sentries ect. The problem with it in anoms is I would want the rigs for more damage application and with the rats spawning within blaster range, I doubt a rattle would out damage a vindi with a gods fist fitting.