Player Features and Ideas Discussion

see the trouble there is, ganking has been made harder over the years, not easier. the only change that made it easier to gank in a cat was it losing its RoF penalty. Where as:

concord response has been improved.
barge tanks have only improved.
ganking is more expensive because of insurance changes.
escaping concord has become impossible.

If i can make a hulk resist two cats and jam a third, so can u.

[Hulk, Hulk tank] 25k EHP (or 27k against blasters)
Mining Laser Upgrade I
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hornet EC-300 x5
Hobgoblin II x5

but if u do fit for max yield, and u dnt pay attention and protect urself, then yeah ganks are going to happen and thats a good thing.

I feel that the Skiff/Procurer should be the only ones with high tanks otherwise the tank levels should be lower. Ships that have bigger cargo and more mining yield have less HP and the like.

Lower the skiff and procurer?

I second Ohhhh Feely Nice's post. Also, I'd like to point out a general imbalance across the classes. The problem that this balance update is meant to address doesn't really seem to be handling the causes. I predict it will be mostly ineffective.

As mentioned, the problem is retrievers/mackinaws are over utilized compared to the other classes. The dev/CCP believes the primary cause of this is the appeal of AFK mining. Let's examine the mining barges and their uses to see if this assessment holds up. The usage scenarios are: risky low/null mining, afk highsec mining, and group mining. For risky lowsec mining, you need 1. a good align time/warp core points to evade blobs and 2. maybe the ability to fend off solo pirates and belt rats. Currently the procurer and retriever can both fill this role on the first point with only a bonus to the procurer's align time, while more yield or stabs with the retriever's extra low. Neither have the teeth for dealing with solo pirates, or the belt rats themselves in null.
What the update will do: The retriever will continue to be viable with it's extra low. Only the procurer will have the teeth for solo frigates if T2 light scout drones are used. Strong belt rats will still be an issue unless medium T2 drones are used, but doing so will impair your ability to kill solo pirate frigates as it only has a bay size of 50. So it will still be a question of mediocre staying power vs. more mining efficiency on the procurer vs. retriever front in low/null.

Now let's look at highsec mining. The retriever is supposed to be an excellent choice here for it's hold size, the idea being that a larger hold, means less attention. The procurer is more or less ungankable but with half of the hold of the retriever and less yield due to one less low. It is still seen in highsec, namely in areas prone to ganking. Now, although ice asteroids take a while to deplete, ore asteroids are another story. When using a retriever in an atypical highsec ore field, you'll have to target new asteroids almost every couple of cycles per laser. That is not very AFK. And there is a lot of time spent repositioning/navigating if you are following a particular ore and not just scooping everything. So if not for AFK mining, then what is the retriever's appeal? ...we'll get to that.

Group Mining Any miner know the site: Large blob of barges with an orca and/or a freighter. The coveter is not an uncommon choice for the obvious yield bonus. But so is the retriever and even the mackinaw and skiff. The low hit points of the coveter aren't a significant issue on a ship you can easily manufacture from your own spoils. But why the retriever, mackinaw and skiff; and why is the hulk not a more common sight? The reason for the skiff isn't obvious unless you mine in regular competition with multiboxers. Multiboxers have the power of many, but the will of one. Miners will compete with each other to scoop up the good roids and multiboxers will suck up a disproportionate amount of resources in the name of one player. This creates a great deal of animosity, resulting in bounties or gankers in npc corps showing up conveniently after solo players in corps leave the scene for no reason (alt characters). So the motivation for the skiffs is to deal with gankers that are not operating with a profit motive.

To answer the questions that have come up, we need to look at the characteristics motivating their use.
Retriever | Procurer | Coveter
Tank: Average | Best | Worst
Yield: Average | Worst | Best
Hold: Best | Average | Worst

The first thing that jumps out is that the retriever is a jack of all trades. The second is that by comparison the coveter only has one thing going for it and the procurer is situational in it's usefulness. Fundamentally, there is something wrong with naming one ship among a class the worst in terms of tank. You could argue that the coveter being group focused should rely on the group, but there is no defense against highsec gankers. You can't attack them preemptively. And in low/null, it just doesn't have enough of a hit point buffer to last to receive reps. With this characteristic weakness in mind, it's obvious why the hulk isn't a more common sight despite the rise of multiboxing blobs; although you can replace a tech 1 ship from your mined ore, you can't do that with a tech 2 ship, and the cost will be a magnitude greater.

Now that we understand the issue of tank between retrievers/mackinaws and coveters/hulks, let's look at the effect of hold size to get an idea of why this attribute might be so useful. For a solo miner or a very taxed multiboxer, hold can be important just as yield can be. At the end of a solo mining session, you need to dock up and unload; or for a multiboxer, jettison a can. Being able to remain on field mining longer means you are spending less time in transit and more time mining, increasing your effective yield. Retriever's lasers consume roids at a faster rate, so in belts multiboxers may still prefer coveters so they do not have to babysit individual lasers quite as much. This higher rate of consumption also is relevant to solo miners as it means increased attention for the supposedly low attention ship. The effect of the higher hold combined with the average yield from the extra low and the average tank is what gives the retriever is utilitarian usefulness. Outside of ice mining, attentiveness is NOT the driving factor.

So what can we do to fix this? These ships remind me of the wizard of oz, only the lion got the brain, the straw man got the heart and the tin man got courage. To start, the coveter and hulk should have an average tank. The procurer needs a bay size of 75 to carry both a full flight of mediums and lights. The retriever can stand to lose a low but gain a high and take the coveter's place as the three beam boat.

The initial change was to give the Procurer a third low slot, bringing its yield on par with the Retriever. This only got changed after 19 pages of discussion in this thread (here's the announcement post by Fozzy).

Could you please explain how I employ this amazing 'AFK mining' technique / mechanism you talk about, please?

If you don't fit a Hulk for max. yield, including mining drones, then you may as well fly a Skiff or a Mackinaw.

Sounds like a decent plan (between week 52/13 and 17/14), just choose the right T1 hull.

Interesting. But is a ship killed more often because it's under-powered (aka: Dies a lot) or over-powered (aka: flown a lot)? You can ask the same question of any ship kill statistics.

End of the day, if a retriever is the target, I feel like it's probably because there's no hulk present.

That's the conclusion they drew from the data, and probably the only conclusion needed in Nullsec or WHs, but I don't feel it's telling the whole story in HS.

it's definitely part of it though.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the topic. Like I said, it's not really that important to me. Personally I'd like to see mining ships a bit tougher as it just makes them more entertaining to kill. Blapping a barge in 2 seconds just feels anti-climactic and silly.