These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

New gank cargo value thresholds?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#21 - 2014-05-29 05:21:20 UTC
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#22 - 2014-05-29 05:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Mabata
Salpad wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.


Its you who need to pay attention to Dev Blogs or be more specific, even after Kronos the Charon will not be shield tanked:
Quoting the Dev Blog here:
CHARON

Caldari Freighter Bonus per level:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Maximum Velocity

Role Bonus:
100% reduction in CPU requirements for Reinforced Bulkheads

Slot layout: 0H, 0M, 3(+3)L;
Fittings: 3(+2) PWG, 1 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time / warp speed): 60 / 0.0625 / 960,000,000 / 83.18s / 1.37
Cargo Capacity: 465000(-320000)m3

So unless you mean the Rhea which gains 5% to shield HP per level ( which still isnt much tank on a freighter especially with a lack of resists in said shields ) Then your still wrong, and if you are talking about the Rhea be specific Jump freighters and normal freighters are not the same thing

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#23 - 2014-05-29 08:06:47 UTC
Salpad wrote:
It's common wisdom that you can fly an autopiloted Charon Freighter with 1 billion ISK worth of cargo. Any more, and gankers are going to profit from suicide ganking you in high-sec.

With max skillz, the current Charon is a little over 167k EHP.

I've also been able to fit a Kryos T1 mineral hauler to 21.3 EHP, that's about 1/8 of a Charon, and thus logically it can safely transport 125M ISK worth of minerals on autopilot.

Even assuming the correctness of the initial premise the scale you're applying should not be so linear. While it is possible to ISBoxer a 15 pilot gank Catalyst fleet the majority of gank groups are likely still live pilotted... It's a lot easier to get a couple of guys to sit at a gate than it is to get ten - and a couple of guys are likely to have a lot more choices of target than ten. And if it takes 15 catalysts to gank a freighter and your fleet can only get ten then you'll have to use Vexors, Talos or 'nados (changing the cost ratio). The cost of ganking a freighter therefore will include the annoyance of that fleet organisation - the cost of ganking a shuttle and pod (one arty thrasher) is (probably) lower than the linear scale...
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#24 - 2014-05-29 10:49:01 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.


Its you who need to pay attention to Dev Blogs or be more specific, even after Kronos the Charon will not be shield tanked:
Quoting the Dev Blog here:
CHARON

Caldari Freighter Bonus per level:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Maximum Velocity

Role Bonus:
100% reduction in CPU requirements for Reinforced Bulkheads

Slot layout: 0H, 0M, 3(+3)L;
Fittings: 3(+2) PWG, 1 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time / warp speed): 60 / 0.0625 / 960,000,000 / 83.18s / 1.37
Cargo Capacity: 465000(-320000)m3

So unless you mean the Rhea which gains 5% to shield HP per level ( which still isnt much tank on a freighter especially with a lack of resists in said shields ) Then your still wrong, and if you are talking about the Rhea be specific Jump freighters and normal freighters are not the same thing

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#25 - 2014-05-29 14:38:35 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.


Its you who need to pay attention to Dev Blogs or be more specific, even after Kronos the Charon will not be shield tanked:
Quoting the Dev Blog here:
CHARON

Caldari Freighter Bonus per level:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Maximum Velocity

Role Bonus:
100% reduction in CPU requirements for Reinforced Bulkheads

Slot layout: 0H, 0M, 3(+3)L;
Fittings: 3(+2) PWG, 1 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time / warp speed): 60 / 0.0625 / 960,000,000 / 83.18s / 1.37
Cargo Capacity: 465000(-320000)m3

So unless you mean the Rhea which gains 5% to shield HP per level ( which still isnt much tank on a freighter especially with a lack of resists in said shields ) Then your still wrong, and if you are talking about the Rhea be specific Jump freighters and normal freighters are not the same thing


Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)


If you look carefully you should realize you gain a small amount of shield and lose a large amount of armor and Structure ( All freighters are structure tanked FYI ) this is roughly the equivalent of putting a large shield extender II on an orca and calling it shield tanked because it now has a bit more Shield EHP. Still Hull tanked hate to break it to ya

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#26 - 2014-05-29 20:47:22 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.


Its you who need to pay attention to Dev Blogs or be more specific, even after Kronos the Charon will not be shield tanked:
Quoting the Dev Blog here:
CHARON

Caldari Freighter Bonus per level:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Maximum Velocity

Role Bonus:
100% reduction in CPU requirements for Reinforced Bulkheads

Slot layout: 0H, 0M, 3(+3)L;
Fittings: 3(+2) PWG, 1 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time / warp speed): 60 / 0.0625 / 960,000,000 / 83.18s / 1.37
Cargo Capacity: 465000(-320000)m3

So unless you mean the Rhea which gains 5% to shield HP per level ( which still isnt much tank on a freighter especially with a lack of resists in said shields ) Then your still wrong, and if you are talking about the Rhea be specific Jump freighters and normal freighters are not the same thing


Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)


If you look carefully you should realize you gain a small amount of shield and lose a large amount of armor and Structure ( All freighters are structure tanked FYI ) this is roughly the equivalent of putting a large shield extender II on an orca and calling it shield tanked because it now has a bit more Shield EHP. Still Hull tanked hate to break it to ya



+44,000 (Forty Four Thousand) is a tad bit more shield than a large shield extender II. The new Charon will have ~233% more shields than armor, and only ~33% less shield than structure.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-29 21:43:52 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)


If you look carefully you should realize you gain a small amount of shield and lose a large amount of armor and Structure ( All freighters are structure tanked FYI ) this is roughly the equivalent of putting a large shield extender II on an orca and calling it shield tanked because it now has a bit more Shield EHP. Still Hull tanked hate to break it to ya
Your definition of large and small needs work as the 2 supposedly large changes to armor and hull combined are less of a raw HP difference than the "small" shield change.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-05-29 22:22:00 UTC
If you put bulkheads in the lows don't you now have a massive hull tank? You can't make the shield tank much bigger, only slightly bigger.

Just my 2c. I'll go away now since I likely have my foot in my mouth and don't know it yet.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#29 - 2014-05-29 23:33:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 50000(+44000) / 15000(-5000) / 77500(-28750)


If you look carefully you should realize you gain a small amount of shield and lose a large amount of armor and Structure ( All freighters are structure tanked FYI ) this is roughly the equivalent of putting a large shield extender II on an orca and calling it shield tanked because it now has a bit more Shield EHP. Still Hull tanked hate to break it to ya
Your definition of large and small needs work as the 2 supposedly large changes to armor and hull combined are less of a raw HP difference than the "small" shield change.


Passive resistance in shield + armour makes those EHP values a lot higher. It also means that logistics ships are going to be able to tank you through a gank so you can travel in a gang with high-value goods and not get instantly blapped by a meagre amount of ships. Combine that with fleet bonuses... I'm thinking trash fit ships might struggle to gank them more.

It raises the suicide cost of killing these ships significantly.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-30 07:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Praxis Ginimic
This has been a fun supposition but I think its time to be realistic about our indy friends.

If you think for 1 minute that those lows won't be filled with either cargo expanders or the new faster-warpy-thingies then you're kidding yourself. Sure some smart pilots will put bulkheads in there but smart pilots don't AP through Udeama. What's more, smart gankers (and most of them are at least clever) will be adding a ship scanner right next to the cargo scanner to make sure they prey on the dumb ones.

Result: frieghters just got a whole lot less expensive to gank.

Edited for reasons you will never truly understand
Jeann Valjean
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-30 13:24:42 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
2) Charon is not shield-tanked.


Pay attention to Dev Blogs, F&I dev posts, and so forth! The Charon and the other Freighters are going to be changed. I'm talking about their after-change stats, not their current stat.


Please pay more attention if you're going to sit at the front of the class. Today's lecture notes covered freighter tanking. This will be on the test.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-05-30 14:19:57 UTC
I've never understood why bulkheads need CPU in the first place. I mean it's just a ... wall.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#33 - 2014-05-30 18:34:14 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
I've never understood why bulkheads need CPU in the first place. I mean it's just a ... wall.

Ever seen a thrust vector equation for an object in space, under boost and attempting to change heading? Changing the ship structure makes that harder.

Just a fluff excuse, but a semi-decent one.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-05-30 20:26:18 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
This has been a fun supposition but I think its time to be realistic about our indy friends.

If you think for 1 minute that those lows won't be filled with either cargo expanders or the new faster-warpy-thingies then you're kidding yourself. Sure some smart pilots will put bulkheads in there but smart pilots don't AP through Udeama. What's more, smart gankers (and most of them are at least clever) will be adding a ship scanner right next to the cargo scanner to make sure they prey on the dumb ones.

Result: frieghters just got a whole lot less expensive to gank.

Edited for reasons you will never truly understand
How do you figure they got less expensive to gank.
They just got raw HP buffed. They got those buffs in defensive layers with nonzero Kin/Therm resists further increasing the cost to gank for talos groups. And even if they fit Cargo Expanders, Inertial stabs or Hyperspace Accelerators, none of those reduce tank, and as such none reduce cost to gank.

The real results:
- An unfit freighter is more expensive to gank
- Nanofiber Internal Structures are the only things they ships can fit that reduce tank, meaning any single attribute can be enhanced without making ganks cheaper
- The ships have less base cargo, meaning unless fit with Expanders, those who used to carry gank worthy loads simply by way of volume will be less likely to do so from the change forward
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-05-30 20:30:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
This has been a fun supposition but I think its time to be realistic about our indy friends.

If you think for 1 minute that those lows won't be filled with either cargo expanders or the new faster-warpy-thingies then you're kidding yourself. Sure some smart pilots will put bulkheads in there but smart pilots don't AP through Udeama. What's more, smart gankers (and most of them are at least clever) will be adding a ship scanner right next to the cargo scanner to make sure they prey on the dumb ones.

Result: frieghters just got a whole lot less expensive to gank.

Edited for reasons you will never truly understand
How do you figure they got less expensive to gank.
They just got raw HP buffed. They got those buffs in defensive layers with nonzero Kin/Therm resists further increasing the cost to gank for talos groups. And even if they fit Cargo Expanders, Inertial stabs or Hyperspace Accelerators, none of those reduce tank, and as such none reduce cost to gank.

The real results:
- An unfit freighter is more expensive to gank
- Nanofiber Internal Structures are the only things they ships can fit that reduce tank, meaning any single attribute can be enhanced without making ganks cheaper
- The ships have less base cargo, meaning unless fit with Expanders, those who used to carry gank worthy loads simply by way of volume will be less likely to do so from the change forward


Expanded cargoholds reduce hull HP. Since freighters are hull tanked this could be bad
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-05-30 20:39:29 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
This has been a fun supposition but I think its time to be realistic about our indy friends.

If you think for 1 minute that those lows won't be filled with either cargo expanders or the new faster-warpy-thingies then you're kidding yourself. Sure some smart pilots will put bulkheads in there but smart pilots don't AP through Udeama. What's more, smart gankers (and most of them are at least clever) will be adding a ship scanner right next to the cargo scanner to make sure they prey on the dumb ones.

Result: frieghters just got a whole lot less expensive to gank.

Edited for reasons you will never truly understand
How do you figure they got less expensive to gank.
They just got raw HP buffed. They got those buffs in defensive layers with nonzero Kin/Therm resists further increasing the cost to gank for talos groups. And even if they fit Cargo Expanders, Inertial stabs or Hyperspace Accelerators, none of those reduce tank, and as such none reduce cost to gank.

The real results:
- An unfit freighter is more expensive to gank
- Nanofiber Internal Structures are the only things they ships can fit that reduce tank, meaning any single attribute can be enhanced without making ganks cheaper
- The ships have less base cargo, meaning unless fit with Expanders, those who used to carry gank worthy loads simply by way of volume will be less likely to do so from the change forward


Expanded cargoholds reduce hull HP. Since freighters are hull tanked this could be bad
You are correct, I forgot about that drawback. Still, Istabs/HA's can be fit without any applicable drawback and unfit freighters still are tougher.
ELWhappo Sanchez
#37 - 2014-06-01 07:17:30 UTC
Previous page12