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Near-ISK-less playthrough possible?

Author
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#21 - 2014-05-28 22:33:37 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Loona Hardigan wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
So you have a grand total of 12 ships (give or take, with most requiring cross-training), and whatever handful of (likely useless, because you don't _need_ another 125mm railgun) mods you can scrape off the rats...

While "everything" does drop over time ... you won't exactly have enough of anything to actually use in order to fit a ship (not to mention ammo). Furthermore, you will have to go out to low/null to get a fair number of these mods, where you will lose your ship.

Remember -- ships and modules are intended to wear out (read - get exploded) and be replaced.


I'll _need_ another 125mm railgun if my other one got exploded along with the ship it was fitted in, even if it goes into Reaper #38 :)

With the skillbooks I already have injected, I can keep training for the basic stuff and stick with my starting faction stuff for a while - I did get some drops that require other factions' typical skills, so at some point I might go for the cross-training required to put those to use.



No, you missed my point -- you've got 12 ships, and have (for example) ratted a stash of 30 125mm [whatever named] railguns.

That's all well and good, but railguns alone aren't going to keep your ship in one piece -- hell, they might not even fit on what you're flying (each race is spec'd towards one gun or another). You still need tank mods, and ammo, and a prop mod, and maybe some fitting mods because you have crap skills.

You'll never find T2 anything in a drop (well, unless you kill another player).


You will get tank module drops. Your biggest difficulty will be getting mining equipment. Trekking to ORE without interdiction nullification to get blueprints will be painful.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Velicitia
XS Tech
#22 - 2014-05-28 22:39:29 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


You will get tank module drops. Your biggest difficulty will be getting mining equipment. Trekking to ORE without interdiction nullification to get blueprints will be painful.


Yes, you "will" ... but let's be honest here, it's not going to be enough to actually get a chance to play eve as anything other than "grind NPCs and hope I get that 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plate so I can finish my build".

As I've already said -- it's an interesting experiment, but will get really old, really fast.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#23 - 2014-05-29 01:48:51 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


You will get tank module drops. Your biggest difficulty will be getting mining equipment. Trekking to ORE without interdiction nullification to get blueprints will be painful.


Yes, you "will" ... but let's be honest here, it's not going to be enough to actually get a chance to play eve as anything other than "grind NPCs and hope I get that 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plate so I can finish my build".

As I've already said -- it's an interesting experiment, but will get really old, really fast.



You'd probably just use the lower meta versions of that plate.

I agree that this will not be fun for long.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-05-29 11:38:15 UTC
It's certainly ratcheting up the difficulty level, but ultimately virtually everything is obtainable - be it through drops (from pve or pvp, although the latter will be terrifyingly hard under your rules!), mission rewards, manufacture, or lp stores. Hell, as long as only true "purchasing" off other players is off-limit to you (which sounds the case since you broached bartering through contracts), good old-fashioned theft of a corp-hanger or two could fill a gap in your inventory Pirate

I imagine the only thing you'll hit a wall on is T2 items, since it would be phenominally difficult to gather the moon goos from different poles of the galaxy to craft anything worth having, so the only way you are getting hold of these is nefariously (the previously mentioned pvp or theft).

If its how you want to play the game, don't let anyone tell you you cant. Sure, its going to be really difficult, likely highly demoralising at times, but as long as you are having fun, and remember that if it gets to a point where its keeping you back from something you want to do, you can toss the whole ethos in the bin and go hog-wild (I'm reminded of my vegetarian housemate who broke down and went on a week-long bacon bender when he decided his philosophy was broken Shocked).
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#25 - 2014-05-29 11:48:13 UTC
For what it is worth, you could conceivably access moongoo through use of siphon units.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Loona Hardigan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-05-29 22:43:25 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "playthrough"


"Playthrough" isn't a great word for this kind of game, but something like "strategy" makes little sense when there's still so much to learn, and for an experiment that limits my options (although it does force me to learn about the options that do exist).

Quote:

(You will need some sort if isk income to buy the blueprints)


PvE provides that - NPCs giveth, NPCs taketh away, and I'm OK with that, especially when it means getting things that can be useful for a long time like skillbooks (usable forever and everywhere) and blueprints (limited to where you have them, for usable forever in the case of BPOs) - more so than destroyable assets like ships or ammo.

Quote:

T2 items can be looted from other players Twisted - building them would require moon mining which won't be an option for the more rare minerals.


Since I'm still learning the game and how to get by with drops and mission rewards, the importance of T2 equipment is still unclear to me - it may depend a bit on context, I take it.
If they're in the market, like I said, and nothing else will do for a given task, an item exchange contract with a tempting enough offer might do the trick.

Wildmouse X wrote:
I think you've missed a big part of this game... just because you want to play PVE, doesn't mean anyone else is, nor that they will respect your desires to avoid PvP... you will, at some point, come through a gate, right into a warp bubble gate camp and get blown up by the players sitting there waiting for you... happens in low sec, null sec, and even in high sec. - you will not be able to avoid it, and if you are not fitted for it ( and just using stuff that drops, you won't be), you will die from it, and lose all your precious PvE rewards that you are flying.


I've been reading about the game on and off for a few years now (recent news, namely plans to remove the tutorials, tempted me to finally take the plunge), so I'm decently informed about its reputation and risks - but none of that would still get me accustomed to the basics of actually playing, which is something PvE can help with.
If the PvP side of things will eventually appeal to me, who knows - I don't expect my puny PvE-based fits (and I don't make a point to always use the best I have, far from it) to be the greatest of temptations for suicide gankers, but when I eventually find a reason to head to lower sec I think I know where to look into info for precautions.
At this point I'm not aiming to be space suzerain, killboard king or market mogul, I'm just enjoying the concept of making do what I can get and building stuff I can master the use of - if repairing it myself were an option I'd do that too, but trust issues make that an unmarketable skill in this game, I guess, and the current NPC repair costs must be negligible for most compared to a hypothetical requirement of having the blueprint, materials and an adequate set of skills.


Cara Forelli wrote:
However, I suspect your goals will quickly outpace your skills, which is a problem the rest of us face - even with full market access. EVE is designed for specialization and doesn't reward you for trying to do it all, especially as a young character. Just for reference it takes about twenty years to fully train all the skills in EVE.


I don't need nor want to train them all - if I stick to something like frigates, which appear to be a stable of both PvE and PvP, full mastery can take about a year, but it's not necessary to go that far to get decent use out of them.
The tutorials already provided enough skill books to be able to build stuff and mine - I wouldn't be competing with the folks that have specialized in it, since I'm not working for profit margins, just to get stuff done.
Think of it like getting chores done around the house - most of us aren't professionals at cooking, cleaning or maintenance, but we still get it done even if it's not perfect - over time we can get better at it, but the quality and efficiency isn't super important as long as everything works at a sustainable and healthy level.
Maybe specialization is in my future (if/when I rank 5 all my skillbooks, I can just get the ones left to work on my frigate masteries), but for now this looks interesting to me, trying the full circle approach.



The forum is complaining I'm quoting too much, I'll continue below.
Loona Hardigan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-05-29 22:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Loona Hardigan
Elena Thiesant wrote:

Very, very inefficient. The larger ship BPOs are very expensive (600 million for battlecruiser, over a billion for battleship). Doable, but impractical.


Why would I try to build battlecruisers and battleships if I'm not ever done with my frigate masteries? I'd rather only build stuff I can put to good use.
Blueprints of good modules for frigate might be expensive though, but I'm yet to learn what those are, or what qualities they should have, and the notion of "EFT warrior" I see floating around once in a while points to that being a topic that's far from settled.

Esmerelda 'Esme' Weatherwax wrote:

A sandbox where you cooperate with other players would be a MMORPG kind of sandbox. I know a few, one is called EVE Online.
If you think you are unique with such opinion, here's some food for your thoughts: it was said by CCP that 50% of the players, mostly those who play solo, leave the game after first month, 40% pay another month while playing solo and only 10% actually cooperate and stay in game.
Not persuaded? Okay. FFXI or any other themepark will stay reasonably playable if you remove all players but you. If you do the same in EVE, you'd end up with a nonsense of galactical proportions, unplayable game. If you want a taste of it, go to any nullsec, unless you end up in a bubble you'll see nothing but empty systems, mostly without stations.


I have nothing againt coorperating with other players, or I'd be playing Frontier instead of this - and performing this experiment would have very little value without human attitudes around it to see how viable it is. It is, after all, in part an economic experiment in a game famous for the liveliness of its economy, and there aren't a whole lot of offline locations where you can try and live without currency.

Sure enough, I'm trying to apply some similar principles I do in FFXI - namely, not buying something I can farm or quest myself (particularly for permanently beneficial items, such as spell scrolls, which roughly match EVE's skill books), and that's easier when for FFXI you have wiki pages like this: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Silver_Ingot - this tells you every way to get an item and what you can use it for, and I'm yet to find a decent EVE equivalent - the economic competition factor appears to discourage sharing information at such a level of information, or maybe there's just a lot of it to the point nobody bothers.

I read about those stats, but they keep track of few factors like corp membership, and there's very little information regarding goals and ideas they had about the game, or how informed they were about its nature - then again, it's not like CCP asks when people sign up (I'm sure the alt answers would get amusing though).


Quote:

Are you trying to say that all corps demand people to fleet up? Many do, but they state it during the chat with a recruit, and they would (probably) not take you anyway due to your planned playstyle. There are hundreds of corps, I don't believe none would ever fit your playstyle. For example, EVE Univesity does not require fleets at all, and it's a corp dedicated to help new players.


Of course not, I don't know all corps, not all are recruiting, and some of them don't seem that clear on what is it they want (although there are certainly a lot labelling themselves as Pvp centric). A lot wouldn't take me anyway at my current amount of skill points.
I'm not discarding the option of at some point getting in touch with a learning corp, but I wan't to try and see what I can figure out for myself first - if I do decently at it, maybe at some point there's be something I'll be able to teach teach instead on relying entirely on others to learn.


Leafar Nightfall wrote:
I even heard of a player that's being just sightseeing the systems in a pod for some years now. It is said that he is already rich from all the rookie ships he gets ...


Sounds interesting, but I was under the impression you can't sell the rookie ships or their content - but maybe that's just reprocessing...

Quote:

However I don't see much reason to just ignore isk completly, as it will probably make it just boring instead of challenging. I'd advise to set a low roof value to keep in you wallet, say a million, and store the rest of the isk in an alt or corp wallet. It would be interesting to keep track of how much you've saved doing your own stuff or trading items. Then you do something with this isk, like sponsoring newer players or something like this.


I already have to spend ISK on NPC-only services like clone upgrades, repairs and buying skillbooks and blueprints - no point on putting money aside for something else, if I entirely run out I'll just end up having to revise my plans anyway.





The forum still complains about too many quotes, more below...
Loona Hardigan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-05-29 22:47:17 UTC
Quote:

Another nice rule would be to do just "indirect trades" if needed. Let's say you have ship A but want ship B. Sell ship A to the market, buy ship B, any profit you had you deposit in the external wallet


Then everybody else would just be playing their usual way - if hypothetically somebody else is interest in item-only contracts, but deterred by the 10k fee instead of something more proportional to the value of the items (it doesn't seem viable to set up an exchange of the duplicated skillbooks I got from tutorials for others I may lack, since those are in the market range of 30k), they'll just keep not using the closest available option.
It's a bit of a "be the change you want to see in the world" approach - if enough people used the system more, maybe it'd get some improvements.
I feel a bit too new to propose that in the current Ideas forum (also, it's flooded with sticky Knonos topics), so I'll just act on it when it seems relevant to try and set precedents.


SurrenderMonkey wrote:
If you're looking for an impractical and arbitrary self-imposed handicap, why not just play the game without the use of your hands?


From things read here and there one can get the impression that it's possible to play only with your mouth, through Teamspeak or similar if you're influential enough, which is far from my case.


Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

You will get tank module drops. Your biggest difficulty will be getting mining equipment. Trekking to ORE without interdiction nullification to get blueprints will be painful.


I have a couple of Ventures from the tutorials - at this point I've not yet researched how much I'd need to mine to make my own frigate, but the scale of mining effort and efficiency I'd require for that is likely less than someone trying to make a profit supplying somebody trying to supply a fleet.
Gorthanator
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-05-30 06:10:36 UTC
With respect planing is good but restricting yourself is bad. this is a very complicated game, you are obviously a smart individual so should do well as long as you are smart enough to adapt.

What I planned to do when I signed up and what I am doing now are two very different things. It seems to me that if you stick to what you are planning to do you wont have as much fun as you could do.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-30 11:43:00 UTC
Wildmouse X wrote:
I think you've missed a big part of this game... just because you want to play PVE, doesn't mean anyone else is, nor that they will respect your desires to avoid PvP... you will, at some point, come through a gate, right into a warp bubble gate camp and get blown up by the players sitting there waiting for you... happens in low sec, null sec, and even in high sec. - you will not be able to avoid it, and if you are not fitted for it ( and just using stuff that drops, you won't be), you will die from it, and lose all your precious PvE rewards that you are flying.


regardless of what ship or mods you have you will die anyway its just inevitable, dont think a single player could take on any average sized gatecamp solo

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Esmerelda 'Esme' Weatherwax
Ant Bank
#31 - 2014-05-30 18:15:31 UTC
Loona Hardigan wrote:
Since I'm still learning the game and how to get by with drops and mission rewards, the importance of T2 equipment is still unclear to me - it may depend a bit on context, I take it.

For your playstyle T2 is not important; it will become important when you'll want to optimise your firepower, armour etc. T2 items are often better than T1, although more CPU/PG hungry.

PVE vs PVP: I've seen rats dropping PVP modules, so you're okay in this area as well.

Repairing: you can repair shields,armour or hull on your own with repair modules, quite a few people are doing it to avoid repair prices.

Frig specialisation: not sure if you can do higher level missions in frigs, I know destros are okay for L2, and also not sure about higher level combat sites, but yea I guess it's not a gamebreaker.

EVE info similar to that FFXI wiki:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=983 (example) - scroll down to see NPC sellers
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Veldspar (example) - obviously EVE University wiki is very good source for a lot of stuff, although you may already know it

Loona Hardigan wrote:
From things read here and there one can get the impression that it's possible to play only with your mouth, through Teamspeak or similar if you're influential enough, which is far from my case.

you trolled a troll, nice :)

Mining: mining laser BPOs are accessible, and you can use other frigates/destroyers/titans instead of specialised ship.


So yea, your playstyle is viable, it's just completely strange ;-D and more something i'd expect from bored veteran.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#32 - 2014-05-30 18:44:56 UTC
Not only are you approaching the game from an interesting way, but you are a fellow FFXI vet like me. I'd love to assist you any way I can. Any sort of trade or advice you need if you're in game look me up.

Also, Puppetmaster 4 lyfe. (Played for 6 years, stopped when the cap was still 75 + merit points)
Loona Hardigan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-05-30 21:18:54 UTC
Esmerelda 'Esme' Weatherwax wrote:
PVE vs PVP: I've seen rats dropping PVP modules, so you're okay in this area as well.


How different are modules considered PvP-fit compared to PvE ones?

I read rats by group tend to favor certain kinds of offense and defense, which leads to PvE strategies and mods meant to counter them, but there the difference is predictability compared to a PvP situation (unless it's a battle against a corp or alliance with a known ship doctrine which hasn't changed it recently).

Quote:

Repairing: you can repair shields,armour or hull on your own with repair modules, quite a few people are doing it to avoid repair prices.


I know shields can regenerate on their own, more so with shield modules, and that there are equivalent armor modules, but if the actual hull is reached by attacks, I know yet of no way of repairing it on the go.
I've read occasional comments about not mixing shield and armor modules in your fits - possibly to optimize the use of mid and low slots in more specialized builds, possibly in a group situation that includes a logistics ship? Or too much of a load on the capacitor/CPU?

I was referring to repairing more structural damage just like in the station services - and according to default selections on those, that can also be applied to some modules, though I'm yet to see my puny ones need that.

Quote:

EVE info similar to that FFXI wiki:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=983 (example) - scroll down to see NPC sellers


Very interesting, thanks - I wasn't aware of this one yet.
Not quite as complete as I'd hoped, but it already covers a fair bit - I looked up the Diplomacy skillbook, which I got as a mission reward from one of the first non-career-tutorial missions I tried, but that wasn't mentioned in the corresponding page, and looking up a material like Mexallon it does list a lot of possible blueprints that use it, but eventually stops, simply saying "929 more", but not providing a link to view them.
Still, quite a step above the competition - I hope there are plans to improve it.


Evi Polevhia wrote:
Not only are you approaching the game from an interesting way, but you are a fellow FFXI vet like me. I'd love to assist you any way I can. Any sort of trade or advice you need if you're in game look me up.

Also, Puppetmaster 4 lyfe. (Played for 6 years, stopped when the cap was still 75 + merit points)


Neat. I mained monk there - no weapons, no magic, no problem - gear just improved on abilities that improved naturally with levelling and skill-ups with little dependance on gear, something perhaps not too far off from how this game's skill system works.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-05-30 21:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Loona Hardigan wrote:
How different are modules considered PvP-fit compared to PvE ones?


Some modules, such as warp disuptors and energy neutralizers are never used in PVE fits, because they serve no purpose against npcs (ie the mission rats aren't going to try to warp, so there's no reason to try and prevent them from warping).

Other modules are fairly useless for PVP, or are eclipsed by better options and thus are rarely used. For instance, capacitor rechargers are used in PVE to improve capacitor stability for long drawn-out combat, but in PVP fits capacitor boosters are much more common since they provide a large burst of capacitor which is useful for shorter engagements.


Loona Hardigan wrote:

I was referring to repairing more structural damage just like in the station services - and according to default selections on those, that can also be applied to some modules, though I'm yet to see my puny ones need that.


Structure can be repaired using a hull repairer, which is similar to the armor repairer modules. They are not commonly used because most ship have very few structure hitpoints, so it is almost always better to invest defensively in shields or armor instead. Modules take damage from heat if you overload them (requiring the thermodynamics skill). They can be repaired in the station service or by using nanite repair paste while in space.

TLDR: All damage can be repaired without ISK. Heat damage will require you to do some extensive planetary interaction to obtain nanite repair paste however.

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