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Why is refining ore and mods instant?

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-05-28 21:13:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Actually there is better answer: this is just another half-ass designed feature. It was implemented once and then everybody from CCP just forgot about it.
That's entirely possible, too. Especially considering that within a game economy as complex as EVE's, it's impractical to say 'oops we forgot about that' years later and plss-off the whole industrial playerbase.

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Ohhhh Feely Nice
Feely Good Logistics
#42 - 2014-05-28 21:22:04 UTC
Guys... so upset right now.
I just flew all the way to the market, bought this BPO, and spent several days researching it. Now it's telling me I have to wait AGAIN to manufacture a new item with it?

But... I've already spent time once!!!!

Lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2014-05-28 21:42:07 UTC
Cristl wrote:
Huh? Refining doesn't feed into a market supply chain?
Nope. It is only a stumbling block between asteroids and minerals. For all intents and purposes, you could just as well remove ore and just mine minerals directly — it's the mining that does the actual item creation. Refining is just there to provide a second stage of (in)efficiency in how that material is taken to market.

Quote:
Ok, please explain in terms that a drunk could understand why turning veldspar and scordite into tritanium and pyerite should be instant but require skills, while turning tritanium and pyerite into carbonised lead or whatever should take skills and time.
Turning a rock into tritanium takes time and skill (and a process that varies how efficient you are at it called refining); turning tritanium into carbonised lead takes time and skills (and a process that varies how efficient you are at it called ME research).

You are confusing the parts with the whole and thinking that each part should be like every other part for no apparent or reason.

Refining takes no time because it would be idiotic and bad gameplay if it did. It's that simple. Everything else is pointless navel-gazing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2014-05-28 21:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ohhhh Feely Nice wrote:
Refined minerals sell for more and are more useful than ores.
…because someone couldn't be arsed to trained the skills involved. That's the value of your SP you're seeing, nothing else. It should therefore nothing — it already requires some time to achieve this result.

Oh, and refined minerals sell for than ore because ore is effectively useless. It only serves one purpose: to go through the final step of the materials creation process and be refined into something you can use for a vast number of different things.

Quote:
It's a balance issue, that is the reason. You are taking X item and converting it into Y item. You are doing so because it is advantageous. This coincides quite nicely with research and the like and should be balanced accordingly.
No. You do so because you must. If you don't you have a whole pile of worthless junk. It also is balanced like research: you spend time to increase your efficiency.

Quote:
I am also unsure of how you've concluded it would be "insanely inefficient" when no one has offered any numbers as to how long it should take to refine.
Because how long it should take is not relevant to what I said. It would be insanely inefficient to have one refiner per player block. This conclusion is blindingly obvious if you take a second to think of how it would work if only one person in the closest 5 regions could refine stuff.
Cristl
#45 - 2014-05-28 22:10:26 UTC
Will reply later, it's 6am here right now. I still don't think the refine skill owners are properly recompensed. Do you have an opinion!? Post it now?! Lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2014-05-28 22:55:30 UTC
Cristl wrote:
I still don't think the refine skill owners are properly recompensed.

Read up on the industry changes.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-05-28 23:51:58 UTC
In answer to your first question, no.

In answer to your second question, yes.

Is there anything else you need?
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
#48 - 2014-05-29 03:09:55 UTC
Everything in this game is essentially arbitrary. Moon goo requires 2 steps that both require time to be made useful. And for many items, a third step.

Logic would indicate that refining would take time and if implemented from the beginning of the game tippia would be arguing why it's important. Yet because ccp is arbitrary, we are having this conversation.

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-05-29 03:17:21 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Why not add a candy crush mini-game to refining? The better you are at matching your minerals, the faster and better you refine.


Why not play candy crush instead?

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Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#50 - 2014-05-29 04:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Belt Scout
Take this red pill and stop rollplaying.

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Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-05-29 04:57:21 UTC
excellent question.

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Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#52 - 2014-05-29 05:23:23 UTC
[headcanon] It's not, what happens is you give the station your materials and they turn this around to give you the refined equivalent with 2 or 3 percent less than usual that they have laying around on hand, then they sell the mods to all sorts of pirates and malcontents, refine the ore and use some of the money to buy more resources to trade to space sociopaths. [/headcanon]

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#53 - 2014-05-29 14:36:03 UTC
Smashing things is quicker and more fun than making them

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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-05-29 17:38:50 UTC
Benefit to delayed refining: Refining turns into a real profession.

Issues with delayed refining: Really REALLY annoying. Adds another step in the process.

Delayed refining may have been a good idea if it were implemented at launch, but adding it now would just be annoying. Current industrial jobs would have to have production time and mineral amounts changed to compensate. Mining and selling ore would be less profitable in comparison, while mineral prices would increase. Over all its a lot of work for very little payout. Currently the refining skills make little sense (I assume that the stations keep mineral stockpiles and trade them to you for the unrefined material, this makes sense why standing affect refine amount), but the reverse would be true if delayed refining were added.

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Cristl
#55 - 2014-05-29 19:26:44 UTC
^ Pretty much my interpretation.

But given that a whole new industry revamp is nigh, wouldn't now be a good time to change things? Like I said, I don't for a moment think that total time to market needs to be increased, but you could add a refining stage and speed up other stages like mining or blueprint operations to compensate.

The key thing is that attaching skills to zero-duration tasks is poor design. Obviously all of us with significant stuff to refine choose the option of "my mate John who knows a friend of Kevin Bacon whose aunt bought an alt with perfect refine skills..." or whatever - because we aren't idiots - but these rules are inherently counter to Eve principles found almost everywhere else.

Or, just send refining-skills to the learning-skills graveyard perhaps?
Paul Panala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-05-29 19:52:10 UTC
It was probably setup that way in the beginning to reduce the number of ongoing tasks the servers had to keep up with. While it might be more realistic to fix that at this point, you are going to upset a lot of people.
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-05-29 20:28:46 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...

When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.

There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.

Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?

To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!

this logic leads to instant copying. After all you already spent some time researching BPO....



That is in NO way accurate.

When you harvest minerals the time sink is strip miner cycle time

When you research a BPO the time sink provides you improved ME/PE

When you copy a BPO the time sink provides you COPIES

Improved ME does not equal copies
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-05-29 20:32:00 UTC
Ohhhh Feely Nice wrote:
Guys... so upset right now.
I just flew all the way to the market, bought this BPO, and spent several days researching it. Now it's telling me I have to wait AGAIN to manufacture a new item with it?

But... I've already spent time once!!!!

Lol



You researched for IMPROVED ME or cheeper builds. That was the benifit, why should that also provide instant manufacture?

Sorry for the double post, but.....

Staring to feel like I've been trolled.
eFart
kiddos corect flight
#59 - 2014-05-30 01:00:34 UTC
u can refine it later if u want u just plan when ull pick it up like in 3 hours then you come in 3 hours then u refine and then u pick it up
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2014-05-30 01:50:25 UTC
Cristl wrote:
I just want to know why it has a unique existence.





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