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Why is refining ore and mods instant?

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Cristl
#1 - 2014-05-28 16:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cristl
This has bugged me on and off for ages – almost all industrial processes in Eve require time: whether it be researching, copying, mining or building, your character has to wait it out. However, you can smelt millions of tons of ore instantly.

Isn't that both counter-intuitive and somewhat counter to general Eve principles? Most stuff is designed to take time and be faster with more corpmates involved. But the refining requirements of an entire alliance can be done by a single character.

It's weird. Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind, but it *is* weird right? Is there a reason for this?

---
edit EVE Time: 2014.05.30 16:00

Just to clear up or expand based on feedback:

- it is weird

- The refining could be set up and left while you did other things or logged off. Also, aspects such as mining, manufacturing or copying could be sped up to compensate – there's no need for the overall time to market for goods to increase.

- The key idea is that skills should not be assigned to tasks that are instant, because that allows single alts to do the work of nations, and because newbies with mediocre skills cannot market those skills.

- If changes were to be made, then now's the time to do it

- If refining took time, there would be a refining mini-profession: more people would need to chip-in in larger corporations, and newbies with fair-to-middling refining skills could still be of use. Imagine if they could accept refining contracts from industrial big-shots and make a little extra cash while they run their level two missions. It's an MMO remember: the more interaction the better.

And if POSes then needed an extra buff to refining (over the proposed buff in Crius), who would object?

ps. If they want to combine refining and reprocessing into one word, then smelting would make more sense than reprocessing.
Jamagh
Grand Violations
#2 - 2014-05-28 16:57:23 UTC
I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.


That has always been my theory.

"Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."  CCP Navigator.
Cristl
#3 - 2014-05-28 17:02:50 UTC
Jamagh wrote:
I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.


That has always been my theory.


Interesting. But then refining skills wouldn't make sense, surely?
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#4 - 2014-05-28 17:05:25 UTC
This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone.
Nagamor
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-05-28 17:05:43 UTC
The same technology that lets you obliterate rocks at 10km + is the same technology used for refining but with a bigger power allowance and more complicated facility. At higher energy levels you can reduce complicated constructions back to their base elements with relative ease.

Now, reassembling those elements back into plating and wiring and laser focusing arrays takes serious time as you're rebonding said elements back into very complex items.
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#6 - 2014-05-28 17:05:51 UTC
Capsuleers are just really good at smelting ores.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-05-28 17:21:26 UTC
While we're at it, hasn't it also bugged you that you can take hundreds of thousands of m3 of goods, and just instantly move them from a freighter to a hanger, and vice-versa? Obviously, we need loading and offloading job qeues.
Dave stark
#8 - 2014-05-28 17:21:53 UTC
cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#9 - 2014-05-28 17:28:43 UTC
Jamagh wrote:
I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.


That has always been my theory.


Pretty much this, think of your refining skills as more a case of being able to barter for a better price as you're more aware of what goes in to each item you're selling them :P
Cristl
#10 - 2014-05-28 17:39:12 UTC
Cristl wrote:
Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind


Self-quote because comprehension is hard What?. I'm not advocating that refining should be a grind or time-sink. I just want to know why it has a unique existence.

But those pointing out that refining taking time would be boring, should explain what's so different and interesting about waiting to copy blueprints, or research the ME level on them, or research the PE level on them, or manufacture from them, or invent blueprint copies, or mine minerals, or do any of a thousand chores in Eve. Okay, I suppose mining exposes you to combat, but copying?!

Why is refining, which intuitively would be a slow process requiring many skilled individuals, instant, when (say) copying blueprints is a slow process? Why are chains of characters required to mass-research blueprints, but only one guy needed to refine massive amounts of minerals?
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-05-28 17:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Cristl wrote:
Cristl wrote:
Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind


Self-quote because comprehension is hard What?. I'm not advocating that refining should be a grind or time-sink. I just want to know why it has a unique existence.

But those pointing out that refining taking time would be boring, should explain what's so different and interesting about waiting to copy blueprints, or research the ME level on them, or research the PE level on them, or manufacture from them, or invent blueprint copies, or mine minerals, or do any of a thousand chores in Eve. Okay, I suppose mining exposes you to combat, but copying?!

Why is refining, which intuitively would be a slow process requiring many skilled individuals, instant, when (say) copying blueprints is a slow process? Why are chains of characters required to mass-research blueprints, but only one guy needed to refine massive amounts of minerals?



Maybe copying takes time because xerox went out of business thousands of years ago and we're back to monks copying everything?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#12 - 2014-05-28 17:49:52 UTC
Because only our characters are immortal, not us.

The smallest possible scale model of the Universe is the Universe itself.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-05-28 17:52:09 UTC
Refining ore isn't instant at a POS, and that's part of the reason that noone bothers to do it there, because it is so ridiculously slow. I believe the reason it is instant is in part because adding a delay would not positively contribute to gameplay in any way/
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2014-05-28 17:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Well, you could say reprocessing (we should get used to not calling it refining anymore) isn't instant, and you don't get back your own materials. Rather, you hand them over to the station personnel, and they give you the equivalent result.
Cristl
#15 - 2014-05-28 18:08:49 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Well, you could say reprocessing (we should get used to not calling it refining anymore) isn't instant, and you don't get back your own materials. Rather, you hand them over to the station personnel, and they give you the equivalent result.


Yeah, but I can't just hand them the minerals and instantly get a Rifter, can I?. So that's not consistent. Also, I don't care about roleplay crap or lore-justification, why is it there for gameplay reasons? The more I think about it, the more it just seems to make refining skills a worthless joke, which is annoying me (and I don't even refine)!
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-05-28 18:10:07 UTC
If all data is digitally stored (which it damn well should be now) what is this archaic copying that we do?

In the year 2014 my handwriting is so bad because 99.9% of what I write is on a computer or mobile phone. But in EVE my blueprint calligraphy skills are blooming..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-05-28 18:16:12 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
While we're at it, hasn't it also bugged you that you can take hundreds of thousands of m3 of goods, and just instantly move them from a freighter to a hanger, and vice-versa? Obviously, we need loading and offloading job qeues.


We also need an animated video sequence showing goods being transferred on or off the ship also.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#18 - 2014-05-28 18:16:48 UTC
For the same reason as why repairing your ship is instant, even though it takes hours if you clog up the undock with a hull repper and some nano paste.
For the same reason as why fitting your ship is instant, even though it takes ages to online modules and wait for the cap to come back over 95% every time.
For the same reason as why insuring your ship does not require 800 forms filled out in triplicate and the reason why it doesn't take a week for your pity-n00bship to arrive once you blow up.

Because it would add nothing useful to gameplay and would in fact just make a lot of things worse.
It's kind of the same as why compression is being made instant: because it's a time sink that just gets in the way of the intended purpose of moving stuff around long distances with less hassle.
Cristl
#19 - 2014-05-28 18:35:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
For the same reason as why repairing your ship is instant, even though it takes hours if you clog up the undock with a hull repper and some nano paste.
For the same reason as why fitting your ship is instant, even though it takes ages to online modules and wait for the cap to come back over 95% every time.
For the same reason as why insuring your ship does not require 800 forms filled out in triplicate and the reason why it doesn't take a week for your pity-n00bship to arrive once you blow up.

Because it would add nothing useful to gameplay and would in fact just make a lot of things worse.
It's kind of the same as why compression is being made instant: because it's a time sink that just gets in the way of the intended purpose of moving stuff around long distances with less hassle.


But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities. Okay, key question as far as I see it:

What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes? Why aren't the refining skills silly from a gameplay point of view, given that one alt could do the refining for an infinite-sized corp or alliance?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#20 - 2014-05-28 18:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cristl wrote:
But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities.
…such as?

Quote:
What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes?
The difference is that there's no meaningful reason to slow it down.
Another difference it that there are sufficient meaningful reasons to make it instant., such as how it would pointlessly penalise logistics (again, see compression being made instant).
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