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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#421 - 2014-05-27 19:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Fozzie, what would it take to convince you to place the Phoenix on par or within ~80% the effectiveness of a Naglfar or Moros for blapping sub-caps? I'm not sure you appreciate just how essential dreadnought DPS is at breaking deadspace-fit T3s being supported by triage reps.

The problem with the phoenix as a blap dread is range. The so called "blap" phoenix would be just as effective at blapping targets 30km away as it would be in blapping targets 1km away because of missile mechanics. This is why you'll never see a phoenix with anywhere near the blapping capability of a nag or moros.

The nag or the moros can blap targets that are reasonably far away, but up close will fail because turrets. The hypothetical blap phoenix has no such limitation.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#422 - 2014-05-27 19:30:02 UTC
Removed a double post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#423 - 2014-05-27 19:53:10 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The problem with the phoenix as a blap dread is range. The so called "blap" phoenix would be just as effective at blapping targets 30km away as it would be in blapping targets 1km away because of missile mechanics. This is why you'll never see a phoenix with anywhere near the blapping capability of a nag or moros.

The nag or the moros can blap targets that are reasonably far away, but up close will fail because turrets. The hypothetical blap phoenix has no such limitation.
I recognize that, but the phoenix will also never apply max dps because there is no equivalent amongst target painters to 90% webs. Having the phoenix be uniformly effective at some portion of what a gun dread applies across it's entire range seems like a reasonable compromise.

Of course, all this theorycrafting may be for naught if a Thanatos with assigned fighters arises as our new anti-subcap overlord.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#424 - 2014-05-27 20:59:38 UTC
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
O'nira wrote:



they are gonna be the dread to have in whs i think, we will see after the patch i guess.


Feel free to explain your logic, because in literally no situation past the aforementioned dreadnought duel will the Phoenix post changes even be competitive.

In a typical wormhole engagement where you would need to commit a limited number of caps through a hole, why would you ever consider the new Phoenix over the Naglfar or Moros. Both of the gun equipped dreadnoughts could post a danger to a Bhaalgorn that would shut their tank down rather quickly, but against the Phoenix there is no such threat to fielding that asset. Also, while most theory crafting so far has been assuming a T2 fit more typical of k-space capital fits, the new Phoenix wouldn't even come close to breaking a properly fit WH Triage carrier. Consequently, this limitation on its PvP utility, coupled with its near inability to be competitive with even the weakest of gun dreadnoughts in escalation PvE renders the ship nearly worthless.


Although its rather nice for rolling holes. If you put a pair of plates and an afterburner on it, it reaches the maximum jump mass on the largest wormholes.



because other than subcap blapping(at range) it's basically a better naglfar, capless guns,truly selectable damage type and a freaking monster of a tank, if you can't hit a bhaalgorn with the new phoenix then you have the shittiest fleet/phoenix skills ever.

it's gonna destroy caps vs caps fights wich is honestly what dreads are used for 80% of the time in whs. it can even fit stupid ass rigs to be a monster at subcap blapping if that's the only thing that you are going for - and it will be better at it than other dreads, especially if you don't have that many dreads if you have many its probably better to make a circle of death with them

and unlike a naglfar where the bhaal can just stroll under the nag guns the bhaal can't dodge the missiles in a similar way, they are gonna hit and they are gonna hit hard unless the fleet with the phoenix are **** and don't have webs and painters in wich case the nag/moros would also suck ass at it.


what dread can break a properly fit wh triage carrier exactly? the nag with the same or less amount of dps? maybe a moros can if the carrier is not fit for kin/therm damage but then again the naglfar seems to be preferred over the moros nowadays, even though it can't break a properly fit triage archon so maybe its not as important as you make it sound. and i just thought a bit more about this and the new phoenix has 100% selectable damage types meaning you can shoot at whatever hole the archon has and break it, its probably the best dread for breaking a really well tanked triage carrier. moros is still king for dps though of course.

i think it will be the new naglfar for pvp in terms of wh space(same as happened to nag after ccp reworked them basically)


it will still be **** for pve though you are 100% right on that, probably worse than it is now even.

it's always gonna be **** for k-space because of delayed missile damage so i'm not sure why people are complaining about it, it will literally never get used in any sort of large-scale dread fights. or it will never be prefered over other dreads i guess i mean. in small scale situations it's gonna be great though. can probably see some large scale k-space situations that you can use them with actually, like if you want to tank a buttload of doomsdays they are gonna very viable for it.
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#425 - 2014-05-27 22:26:14 UTC
O'nira wrote:

and unlike a naglfar where the bhaal can just stroll under the nag guns the bhaal can't dodge the missiles in a similar way, they are gonna hit and they are gonna hit hard unless the fleet with the phoenix are **** and don't have webs and painters in wich case the nag/moros would also suck ass at it.





I don't think you quite understand how the new ER on citadels will affect the damage.

Even a webbed and painted Bhaal will shrug off a siege phoenix with minimal reps, even more so after the patch.

I'm not sure Fozzie himself has ever flown the ship or attempted to "blap" with it, lest he might be a bit less relentless in his crusade to make citadel missiles unable to hit anything without a sizable gravity well.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#426 - 2014-05-27 22:30:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm not ignoring this thread at all. That being said, I am well aware of the kinds of games that can be played in attempts to win theorycrafting arguments.

I am especially amused by the implication that 900m sig radius capitals are somehow more common or significant than casually bumping or slowboating capitals. Smile

The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Of course we aren't ruling out any future changes to the Phoenix and other dreads (especially the Rev).

Perhaps not everyone is just asking for the Phoenix to be buffed out of control. Everyone is pretty excited to see the prodigal Dread return home to roost at last, and we are simply following the logical course of thought as to what will happen: Phoenixes become popular, people fly fleets of phoenixes, then someone comes to kill the phoenixes in other dreads. In the min-max nature of EVE, it would not be long before people fighting Phoenixes would use as many signature radius buffs as possible for the sake of strong, guaranteed damage mitigation and almost certain victory.

tl;dr everyone is happy to see the Phoenix getting attention, and we just don't want it to end up being relegated to some other sad niche because of some critical flaw in its damage application.

also hooray fixing the revelation

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#427 - 2014-05-27 22:45:31 UTC
O'nira wrote:
it's gonna destroy caps vs caps fights wich is honestly what dreads are used for 80% of the time in whs. it can even fit stupid ass rigs to be a monster at subcap blapping if that's the only thing that you are going for - and it will be better at it than other dreads, especially if you don't have that many dreads if you have many its probably better to make a circle of death with them.


This is the thing. It's really hard to judge how good the new Phoenix will be because it's so one-dimensional. If you take the opinion that dreads in WH fights are there for killing hostile caps, then the new Phoenix is dominant. Similar raw DPS to a Nag but ~40% more EHP and active tank. It's no contest.

The problem comes with the inevitable Bhaals and neut Legions etc. If you have Naglfars, then you can just position them 30 km apart and one of them should be able to blap away. Or just get 90% webs. I think the concept of the blap Phoenix is overrated - it's a niche fit that doesn't really do anything that a Nag or Moros doesn't do. Its main advantage is surprising idiots. Fitting those Rigours instead of SMCs really hurts the tank and just leaves you with a dread that has unremarkable performance against both caps and subcaps.

And the other problem is that the Phoenix will never be useful in fleet environments, because of delayed damage and firewalls. That's a fundamental issue of missiles, so it's not going away, but it means that the only role possible for a Phoenix is that of the small-scale fights typical of WHs. (This is also a good argument for binning the missile Phoenix entirely for a fleet hybrid dread, but making it viable yet different to the Moros is another problem...)

I'm kinda waffling now, but I recommend leaving the explosion radius as it is now and seeing how things go. CCP has been good recently at tweaking ships after balancing, so should triple-rigour Phoenix gank squads start running amok, they can be brought down to Earth pretty quickly.
Claud Tiberius
#428 - 2014-05-28 01:40:40 UTC
Delayed damage is not really an issue - particularly for torp fits. Its an negligible cost when you consider, launchers do not have to worry about tracking and turret disruptors, capacitor costs and can use any damage type they like...

Firewalls are also a gamble - not only do they have limited range (they cannot protect the whole fleet) their ability to destroy missiles can be reduced, if the missile ship is firing each launcher at different times. Not to mention, the bomb ship is sacrificing some of its own combat abilities. And since missiles only represent 1/4 of the weapon types available in the game, you can bet that not many firewall fits will be in the battle.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#429 - 2014-05-28 02:20:26 UTC
Freddie Merrcury wrote:
O'nira wrote:

and unlike a naglfar where the bhaal can just stroll under the nag guns the bhaal can't dodge the missiles in a similar way, they are gonna hit and they are gonna hit hard unless the fleet with the phoenix are **** and don't have webs and painters in wich case the nag/moros would also suck ass at it.





I don't think you quite understand how the new ER on citadels will affect the damage.

Even a webbed and painted Bhaal will shrug off a siege phoenix with minimal reps, even more so after the patch.

I'm not sure Fozzie himself has ever flown the ship or attempted to "blap" with it, lest he might be a bit less relentless in his crusade to make citadel missiles unable to hit anything without a sizable gravity well.



i don't think you quite looked at the phoenix for wh use yet, all the numbers in this thread are based off **** fits in k-space with what looks like minimal support.

1 t2 rigor and 1 strong crash booster on a phoenix gets its explosion radius down to 1260 with a 118k damage per hit.
3republic target painters and 2 fed webs both unbonused get bhaal up to 927 sig radius and 24ms,lets say that the bhaal has a strong x-instinct booster and it's 788sig radius and 24ms.


if a bhaal can just shrug off that damage then i will be surprised. and that's 3 painters and 2 webs, thats a pretty low number of support to be honest.

a nag with 2 t2 semi and 1 t1 semi lasts for 3m and 15seconds in eft or 3m and 44 seconds with 2 power diagnostics.

a phoenix with 1 t2 rigor and 1 t2 semi and 1 t1 semi lasts for 3m and 36seconds and has a stronger tank with resist bonus and 1 extra mid slot, downside is you can't fit power diagnostics. you can fit 1 painter on the phoenix and tank better than the nag anyways because of the dumb as **** resist bonus its getting.





Gypsio III wrote:
O'nira wrote:
it's gonna destroy caps vs caps fights wich is honestly what dreads are used for 80% of the time in whs. it can even fit stupid ass rigs to be a monster at subcap blapping if that's the only thing that you are going for - and it will be better at it than other dreads, especially if you don't have that many dreads if you have many its probably better to make a circle of death with them.


This is the thing. It's really hard to judge how good the new Phoenix will be because it's so one-dimensional. If you take the opinion that dreads in WH fights are there for killing hostile caps, then the new Phoenix is dominant. Similar raw DPS to a Nag but ~40% more EHP and active tank. It's no contest.

The problem comes with the inevitable Bhaals and neut Legions etc. If you have Naglfars, then you can just position them 30 km apart and one of them should be able to blap away. Or just get 90% webs. I think the concept of the blap Phoenix is overrated - it's a niche fit that doesn't really do anything that a Nag or Moros doesn't do. Its main advantage is surprising idiots. Fitting those Rigours instead of SMCs really hurts the tank and just leaves you with a dread that has unremarkable performance against both caps and subcaps.

And the other problem is that the Phoenix will never be useful in fleet environments, because of delayed damage and firewalls. That's a fundamental issue of missiles, so it's not going away, but it means that the only role possible for a Phoenix is that of the small-scale fights typical of WHs. (This is also a good argument for binning the missile Phoenix entirely for a fleet hybrid dread, but making it viable yet different to the Moros is another problem...)

I'm kinda waffling now, but I recommend leaving the explosion radius as it is now and seeing how things go. CCP has been good recently at tweaking ships after balancing, so should triple-rigour Phoenix gank squads start running amok, they can be brought down to Earth pretty quickly.


its really not that one dimensional, no more than the other dreads.

subcaps aren't gonna be a huge problem for phoenix any more than they are for the other caps. the whole position the dreads 30km off each other is a very niche situation as well and almost never happens because of the nature of wh fights and it also makes you unable to refit unless you warp in an archon with every one of them wich might be ok if its vs only subcaps but if its against others dreads they will punish you for it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#430 - 2014-05-28 05:44:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Do you want the Phoenix to be roughly as effective as other dreadnoughts?
Yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then you've done a rather poor job. It seems you're trying so hard to keep it from being overpowered that you're being too cautious and it's preventing the ship from being buffed as much as it needs to be.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#431 - 2014-05-28 06:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
This is Blap-Dread DPS against a webbed (x4) and painted (x2) Legion. Blue is Moros, green is Naglfar and red is Revelation. That solid line that takes a dump on the other three until 35kms? That's the current Phoenix... with cap rigs and no drugs.

EDIT: This graph was made using standard 60% Fed Navy webs on an unbonused hull, as well as Republic TPs on an unbonused hull.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#432 - 2014-05-28 07:50:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Do you want the Phoenix to be roughly as effective as other dreadnoughts?
Yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then you've done a rather poor job. It seems you're trying so hard to keep it from being overpowered that you're being too cautious and it's preventing the ship from being buffed as much as it needs to be.

he is just an arrogan caldari hater ,wonder why he has to balance the phoenix
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#433 - 2014-05-28 08:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Paikis wrote:
This is Blap-Dread DPS against a webbed (x4) and painted (x2) Legion. Blue is Moros, green is Naglfar and red is Revelation. That solid line that takes a dump on the other three until 35kms? That's the current Phoenix... with cap rigs and no drugs.

EDIT: This graph was made using standard 60% Fed Navy webs on an unbonused hull, as well as Republic TPs on an unbonused hull.


How do those numbers look when you use 90% webs and bonused TP ?
1x 90% web slows a target down MORE than 4x 60% webs, to 10% speed vs 10.45% speed.
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#434 - 2014-05-28 08:49:33 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Paikis wrote:
This is Blap-Dread DPS against a webbed (x4) and painted (x2) Legion. Blue is Moros, green is Naglfar and red is Revelation. That solid line that takes a dump on the other three until 35kms? That's the current Phoenix... with cap rigs and no drugs.

EDIT: This graph was made using standard 60% Fed Navy webs on an unbonused hull, as well as Republic TPs on an unbonused hull.


How do those numbers look when you use 90% webs and bonused TP ?
1x 90% web slows a target down MORE than 4x 60% webs, to 10% speed vs 10.45% speed.

In a typical blap dread centric fight, webbing lokis are whats putting down the webs rather than vindis or vigilants by virtue of being able to survive being primaried by the subcap fleet better.
90% webs certainly do perform better, but really standard Fed Navy webs are generally more than sufficient for a decent tracking fit nag or moros.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#435 - 2014-05-28 09:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Freddie Merrcury wrote:

In a typical blap dread centric fight, webbing lokis are whats putting down the webs rather than vindis or vigilants by virtue of being able to survive being primaried by the subcap fleet better.
90% webs certainly do perform better, but really standard Fed Navy webs are generally more than sufficient for a decent tracking fit nag or moros.



When Phoenix is supposed to be "balanced" around worst case scenario, it natural to look at the other dreads in the same way.

Vindicator can easily have 180k EHP (omni, 150k for lowest resists), not counting boost or slave implants, and using t1 rigs.
Vigilant under same conditions have almost 100k EHP omni, or 87k lowest resist.
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#436 - 2014-05-28 10:44:53 UTC
Much focus on webs, painters, boosters and any other random "benefit".... All these applies for all the dreads and not the phoenix alone.
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#437 - 2014-05-28 11:08:34 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Do you want the Phoenix to be roughly as effective as other dreadnoughts?
Yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then you've done a rather poor job. It seems you're trying so hard to keep it from being overpowered that you're being too cautious and it's preventing the ship from being buffed as much as it needs to be.

he is just an arrogan caldari hater ,wonder why he has to balance the phoenix



Opportunist winmatar scientist working undercover, which sold of cutting edge caldari missile tech to matars, trying to cover it up in every patch which is the favoured race by shifting focus between galente/matar.. I have a gut feeling hes a secretly machariel carebear..
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#438 - 2014-05-28 11:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Freddie Merrcury
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The new Phoenix is far superior to the old one and although I can understand the natural desire to always want more power it's not always in the best interests of the game to indulge in excessive buff spirals.

Do you want the Phoenix to be roughly as effective as other dreadnoughts?
Yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then you've done a rather poor job. It seems you're trying so hard to keep it from being overpowered that you're being too cautious and it's preventing the ship from being buffed as much as it needs to be.

he is just an arrogan caldari hater ,wonder why he has to balance the phoenix



Opportunist winmatar scientist working undercover, which sold of cutting edge caldari missile tech to matars, trying to cover it up in every patch which is the favoured race by shifting focus between galente/matar.. I have a gut feeling hes a secretly machariel carebear..

kinda funny when you think about it

HMLs used to be the bar none best cruiser sized weapons, now they are arguably the worst.

Imagine if the HML's had never been gutted while the rest of the medium sized weapons were buffed to where they are today

we might have something close to that vaunted "balance" that so elusive for some reason.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#439 - 2014-05-28 11:29:06 UTC
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
Much focus on webs, painters, boosters and any other random "benefit".... All these applies for all the dreads and not the phoenix alone.


Since those are needed for deads to "blap" subcaps, they play a big factor in the balance process
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#440 - 2014-05-28 13:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Alexander McKeon wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The problem with the phoenix as a blap dread is range. The so called "blap" phoenix would be just as effective at blapping targets 30km away as it would be in blapping targets 1km away because of missile mechanics. This is why you'll never see a phoenix with anywhere near the blapping capability of a nag or moros.

The nag or the moros can blap targets that are reasonably far away, but up close will fail because turrets. The hypothetical blap phoenix has no such limitation.
I recognize that, but the phoenix will also never apply max dps because there is no equivalent amongst target painters to 90% webs. Having the phoenix be uniformly effective at some portion of what a gun dread applies across it's entire range seems like a reasonable compromise.

Of course, all this theorycrafting may be for naught if a Thanatos with assigned fighters arises as our new anti-subcap overlord.


A Phoenix will apply max dps to anything that has a sigRad larger than it's missiles' explosion radius, and if it's sigRad/ExpRad ratio is proportionately larger than the expVel/target Velocity ratio. 90% webs are not required. But they are very effective when you have them, unless the first condition is in effect, in which case no amount of webbing will help.

EDIT: I made a graph to illustrate the effect of the various stats on missile damage. It uses the base damage from a single Guristas Citadel Torpedo with the relevent support skills (GMP and TNP) at 5, and assumes a target of the aforementioned Ragnarok-linked Archon moving at speeds from 1m/s all the way up to 200m/s. (Yes, I know it can't go that fast. But it makes for a nice graph.) Each of the stats boosts are 35% above the "No EWAR" line, and apply only to each indicated graph line individually. No mixing and matching.

Missile Graph

EDIT2: I would like to point out that current game mechanics allow for only a minimum 50% web. Meta and higher webs are 60%. There is no equivalent to this huge stat change for signature radius or explosion radius.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY