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Renter experience
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Minnie Hitwoman
Scorpion Road Industry
#1 - 2014-05-26 09:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Minnie Hitwoman
I was thinking about where a thread like this belongs. By the contents of it, it kinda should be in CAOD, but I just know that I'm not going to get any honest (or even mature) responses there.Ugh GD sounds like a lesser evil Lol

Anyway, I'm interested in experiences of players that rent space or are playing in renter corps/alliances. It shouldn't be too difficult to get some answers, since there seems to be a lot of players in rented space.

These are the questions I'd like to ask (you can, obviously, post with an alt if you don't want to disclose any sensitive info):

- How long have you been renting?
- Have you ever rented a space before (within some other landowner)?
- How much are you paying for your system(s) and which services (upgrades) do you have installed?
- Do you have a jump bridge route to your system and how difficult is to get to your system from the nearest high-sec region?
- Are roaming gangs of reds frequent (by your opinion) in the space you rent?
- What is your primary activity in the rented space (mining? production? PI? supercap building (if allowed)? ratting?)
- Have you ever switched systems? For example, if a system better than your current one becomes free while still being a property of your landowner.
- Is "blue awoksing" common?
- Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?

I hope answers will shed some light on a huge part of this game that haven't been discussed much.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#2 - 2014-05-26 11:26:29 UTC
-Losing JFs to highsec wardecs

-Losing JFs to nullsec cynos

-Losing JFs to alliance towers

-Losing carriers to roaming gangs

-Losing carriers to rats

-Losing supercarriers to roaming gangs which tackled a carrier

-Losing supercarriers to rats

-Ocassionally losing titans to roamings gangs which...





Oh and they pay to use their space, lol.
Adira Nictor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-05-27 00:48:48 UTC

These are the questions I'd like to ask (you can, obviously, post with an alt if you don't want to disclose any sensitive info):

- How long have you been renting?
unknown

- Have you ever rented a space before (within some other landowner)?
Yes

- How much are you paying for your system(s) and which services (upgrades) do you have installed?
unknown, full combat site upgrades

- Do you have a jump bridge route to your system and how difficult is to get to your system from the nearest high-sec region?
no, they used wh's for easy access to highsec.

- Are roaming gangs of reds frequent (by your opinion) in the space you rent?
No, its pretty safe in the area they are in, at least from reds.

- What is your primary activity in the rented space (mining? production? PI? supercap building (if allowed)? ratting?)
ratting in way over priced ships that players will pay a lot of isk to save.

- Have you ever switched systems? For example, if a system better than your current one becomes free while still being a
property of your landowner.
Unknown

- Is "blue awoksing" common?
Must be with the number of stupid CEOs I have found, though nullsec renters tend to pay ransoms more then highsec carebears.

- Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?
They wanted easy access to easy isk.

I hope answers will shed some light on a huge part of this game that haven't been discussed much.
Brendan Anneto
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#4 - 2014-05-27 04:56:33 UTC
It is easier and more cost efficient to actually try join a corporation in a major nullsec bloc. that way your only bill to pay is a possible (MAybe) corp tax per character in the corp that the alliance charges. but apart from that you arn't paying ten billion per month for a good system.

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.   Proverbs 1:26-27
Prince Sanguine
#5 - 2014-05-27 05:52:49 UTC
Tl;dr

I hate renter scum.

Everytime you read this you are required to send 100 million isk directly to me.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#6 - 2014-05-27 07:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Brendan Anneto wrote:
It is easier and more cost efficient to actually try join a corporation in a major nullsec bloc. that way your only bill to pay is a possible (MAybe) corp tax per character in the corp that the alliance charges. but apart from that you arn't paying ten billion per month for a good system.


Nah IMO sov holding alliances do need some things from corps that not all renter corps could offer.

Ignoring specialist function corps for the moment, a sov holder corp should have sufficient logistics to self-deploy its pilots and move that deployment location as often as required, and it should have pilots that can concentrate into a TZ for strategic tasks (even if that TZ is not the primary TZ of the alliance).

To put things in perspective, the other day I had to patiently explain to a new alliance corp that begged a JF load of stuff to a nearby hub (they wound up covering the haulers fuel bill afaik), that the last 4 jumps they could move their JF load loose in a few trips of a T1 hauler simply by using a scout and tactical BMs to protect the hauler. You couldn't in all honestly hold space with a bunch of corps like that.

The way renting works is that the most efficient use of a system is a moderate number of people on all day, ie a corp with 200 people that play 10 hours a month, is an ideal renter candidate and a terrible sov holder candidate. ie a top end system can support about 10 simultaneous ratters, so it has roughly 7000 ratting hours available a month, and a 200 player corp needing 2000 ratting hours a month can easily fit in 1 system if they are diffuse for time zone, but they'll lose strategic objectives to a 30 man corp that all logs on at the same time every day. A corp of 30 people that all log in all the same time every day, need 2 or 3 systems to be able to rat...

Dominion Sov has a big disjoint between effective farming organisations and effective strategic organisations.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#7 - 2014-05-27 09:10:11 UTC
Prince Sanguine wrote:
Tl;dr

I hate renter scum.


Because you are jealous or because you think you are better?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#8 - 2014-05-27 13:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Tauranon wrote:
[
The way renting works is that the most efficient use of a system is a moderate number of people on all day, ie a corp with 200 people that play 10 hours a month, is an ideal renter candidate and a terrible sov holder candidate. ie a top end system can support about 10 simultaneous ratters, so it has roughly 7000 ratting hours available a month, and a 200 player corp needing 2000 ratting hours a month can easily fit in 1 system if they are diffuse for time zone, but they'll lose strategic objectives to a 30 man corp that all logs on at the same time every day. A corp of 30 people that all log in all the same time every day, need 2 or 3 systems to be able to rat...


That touches on why Most null sec space is better for renting than actually living in, and why people choose to rent rather than fight for the space. It's not so much "omg the blob/they have all the super carriers" like a lot of non-null sec people want to believe, because the blob can be challenged. It's 'why bother fighting for something that doesn't really meet anyone's needs when you can just rent it?'.

There is a "fun quotient" situation here. Big alliances rent out space because it's more fun to rent out space that would be otherwise useless and take the proceeds of that to fund 'fun activities' like gudfights. Smaller groups rent space because it's more fun to have someplace to rat/mine and then take the proceeds of those activities to fund other things like roaming/raiding and market pvp ect ect.

The irony of this is that null sec was much less a "rent only" thing before this. The whole plan was to 'give people a reason to fight for space'.
Before the above linked change, ANY system could be upgraded to a pretty good level of usefulness (ie every upgraded system had 2 sanctums and 2 havens + forsaken and forlorn hubs and rally points, more than enough for a small group to live off of).

AFTER this change, rather than more fighting, null sec turned into "Rentistan"
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#9 - 2014-05-27 13:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Minnie Hitwoman wrote:

- Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?


I'm not a renter but I've dealt with many. One of the many 'untold' reasons why some groups rent is that in a way it makes it harder for people to screw with you.

For SOV holding alliances, all you have to do is look at Dotlan, see where they hold space and look for jumps per hour or npcs kills to find their "heartland" and that's where you go if you want to screw with them (a little bit at least, EVE being EVE a whole lot of that sov holding alliance will not be in null but rather farming FW missions, level 5 missions or high sec incursions for their isk).

With renters, it's much harder to go find them to screw with them. You'd have to use a locator agent and review killboards to see where they lose carebearing ships etc. It's not MUCH harder to find where they operate (and once you do you know they will be there for a while because of their renter agreement), but it is harder. Many renter alliances have multiple regions so manual recon can be tedious.

Renting is a pretty ok way of staying under the proverbial radar, I personally know of 3 pirate corps who left low sec (or in one case, Syndicate) for a renter alliance where they could basically hide out and recoup their losses for a couple months. I find myself surprised at how many pirate groups have alt renter corps for isk making and hiding out.
Minnie Hitwoman
Scorpion Road Industry
#10 - 2014-05-27 13:41:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


The irony of this is that null sec was much less a "rent only" thing before this. The whole plan was to 'give people a reason to fight for space' Before the above linked change, ANY system could be upgraded to a pretty good level of usefulness (ie every upgraded system had 2 sanctums and 2 havens + forsaken and forlorn hubs and rally points, more than enough for a small group to live off of).

AFTER this change, rather than more fighting, null sec turned into "Rentistan"




That's interesting. I remember those changes but haven't thought about them for a while. When you look at it from this distance, it looks logical that renter empires are caused by it. The only expected consequence from the original devblog that did come true is
Quote:
Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec

but with "if they pay the rent" part added.


If I understand correctly "Why rent?" question is the most answered one because it touches the core game mechanics that are though to be in a need of refactoring. I can also see that there are various reasons for renting and that's OK.

Anyway, the reason is only one thing that I'm interested in. I've posted the original set of questions to get some insight in the life of renters past that initial decision as well, but so far not much replies were posted on those.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-05-27 13:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Jenn aSide wrote:


The irony of this is that null sec was much less a "rent only" thing before this. The whole plan was to 'give people a reason to fight for space'.
Before the above linked change, ANY system could be upgraded to a pretty good level of usefulness (ie every upgraded system had 2 sanctums and 2 havens + forsaken and forlorn hubs and rally points, more than enough for a small group to live off of).

AFTER this change, rather than more fighting, null sec turned into "Rentistan"

Pretty much everyone who lived in nullsec before that change, yours truly included, told CCP this would do exactly the opposite of what they claimed. Much like a five year old with a finger in each ear, CCP went and did it anyway. The problem, even if they undid the change tomorrow, the fief and serfdom system we have now works so well that it would be difficult, if not impossible to dislodge.

As someone else in this thread said, it isn't that the blob can't be challenged - it's just that there is still no good reason to go through the effort of doing so.

On the subject of the OP:
- How long have you been renting?
I, personally, have been in a rental alliances, or corporations within alliances, as long as I have been in nullsec, and this goes all the way back to IRC (a Pay-to-Play alliance; which was just renting without calling it renting.)

- Have you ever rented a space before (within some other landowner)?
I have belonged to renters from three different landowners. SSDD.

- How much are you paying for your system(s) and which services (upgrades) do you have installed?
No idea. I don't do the corp monies.

- Do you have a jump bridge route to your system and how difficult is to get to your system from the nearest high-sec region?
No, and as with all things in Eve, it depends on the skill of the pilot and what you're flying. These days, getting anywhere in null in an interceptor is pretty easy. And if I just need to shop, I have out of alliance alts for that, so I don't even need to go.

- Are roaming gangs of reds frequent (by your opinion) in the space you rent?
We have reds, we have WH gangs, and occasionally we get cloaky campers. It's no worse and no better than other places I have lived.

- What is your primary activity in the rented space (mining? production? PI? supercap building (if allowed)? ratting?)
I mostly just play blink and occasionally undock to kill things (or get blown up).

- Have you ever switched systems? For example, if a system better than your current one becomes free while still being a property of your landowner.
Yes. It's not uncommon.

- Is "blue awoksing" common?
If your surrounded by idiot corporations, yes. I've been lucky in this regard. But then I don't even trust my alts - as a capital pilot, I have a level of paranoia that borders on clinical psychosis.

- Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?
There's nothing in nullsec worth the effort of trying to take it away from someone else when I can get the same benefits through a much less labor intensive means. It's a lot easier to make some ISK and pay someone else to deal with the headaches of administration and ownership and there's no pressing need for me to try and take the systems from them since I already get access to everything in them anyway with the exception of the good moons -- and that's of marginal value anyway, no one I know is hurting for ISK. It practially rains from the heavens if you're even halfway playing the game.

I think that's really what it boils down to. Personally, I make a little over 3 billilon ISK a month playing about 10 - 15 hours a week on one account. That's enough to plex my account, lose a billion in blink and still keep myself in ships and modules for PvP. If I can do all that and NOT have to deal with the headaches of owning the system, that what is my motivation to try and take it from the people who do own it? Now if you needed to hold space to make decent money in null, you'd see a significant shift, but you don't, so there's noi reason for that status quo to change.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#12 - 2014-05-27 15:40:51 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Now if you needed to hold space to make decent money in null, you'd see a significant shift, but you don't, so there's noi reason for that status quo to change.


This touches on another issue (that i've talked about a lot on these forums). CCP seemed to have changed null (like in the DEv Blog i linked) without taking nito consideration the rest of EVE. Null might not have turned into renter heaven where it not for the fact that there are sooooo many relatively easy ways to make isk outside of null.

Faction Warfare is a big factor in this, I personalyl know dozens of players who (like me) have faction warfare stealth bomber alts just for doing the missions. I recently trained an alt to use a Purifier and in a few more days I'll put her in minmatar FW (my current FW alt flys a manticore and was doing those god-awful ECM and missile spewing Gallente FW missions, FarmMatar for me now lol).

Incursions, wormholes, SOE and Thukker high sec missions and now low sec exploration and belt spawn hunting, all of these make null sec PVE as a means to 'live' a lot less popular option. The nerf that came with ESSs (though manageable) doesn't help.

Null still has major advantages (missions in npc null, the ease of liquid isk making from SOV null anoms and such) and I still prefer doing anoms to anything else, but there are just way too many good options everywhere else.

This was not the case when i started ym null sec life in 2008 (after livnig in high sec my 1st year). if you wanted to make good PVE isk you HAD to go to null sec unless you were running those high sec lvl 5 missions (based on a bug CCP eventually fixed). Now you can damn near PVE anywhere and make enough for a plex easily, exacerbating SOv nulls 'situation'.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#13 - 2014-05-27 15:55:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Null might not have turned into renter heaven where it not for the fact that there are sooooo many relatively easy ways to make isk outside of null.

I don't really understand the logic here. Lots of relatively easy isk making alternatives to renting leads to lots of renters?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#14 - 2014-05-27 16:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Null might not have turned into renter heaven where it not for the fact that there are sooooo many relatively easy ways to make isk outside of null.

I don't really understand the logic here. Lots of relatively easy isk making alternatives to renting leads to lots of renters?


It's a contributing factor. There is less reason to fight over space for the purpose of using space to make your own isk if you can easily make that isk elsewhere in space no one can take from you (high sec, low sec) or in space that is harder to take from you (FW low sec, wormholes). Renting allows alliances the best of both worlds: line members are making isk outside of null so you don't need space and renters are paying you for space you don't even need.

If not for those other ways for 'line' pilots to make boatloads of quick isk, Alliances would be forced to take useable space as a means for their pilots to make enough isk to keep themselves in ships and mods. Renting wouldn't be so much of a thing because the alliances would need the use of their space.

Since it's so easy for experienced/higher SP pilots to make isk doing other things (my buddies corp does corp organized lvl 5 mission blitzing with Tengus for isk for example), alliances don't need to use the space they hold so they can rent it out to corps filled with less experienced/lower SP pilots for whom null PVE is a good deal. you don't need a lot of organizational skills or SP or even expensive ships to run null anoms (Attack BCs are enough for any anom once you've been taught how to do it) where as you do need those things (at least to moderate levels) to get the best out of top end wormhole content, shiny incursions and lvl 5 missions.

Faction warfare PVe (doable in cheap ships) is one exception to the rule though.

The fact that you can make good (in some cases, too good) isk outside of sov null sec doesn't cause "Rentistan", it just amplifies the problems that do cause it.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-05-27 16:08:50 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Null might not have turned into renter heaven where it not for the fact that there are sooooo many relatively easy ways to make isk outside of null.

I don't really understand the logic here. Lots of relatively easy isk making alternatives to renting leads to lots of renters?


No, it leads to your sov holders not really needing to use the space themselves, except in small ways ((moon mine and build supers, for example) that do not preclude others using the same space for other purposes, so they make their money elsewhere and rent out the space to people who pay them to access it.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-05-27 16:12:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
(my current FW alt flys a manticore and was doing those god-awful ECM and missile spewing Gallente FW missions, FarmMatar for me now lol).


Remind me to talk to you about Farmatar. I have an alt that could be in a stealth bomber in pretty short order, and that sounds like fun.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Prince Sanguine
#17 - 2014-05-27 16:29:31 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Sanguine wrote:
Tl;dr

I hate renter scum.


Because you are jealous or because you think you are better?


What do you think? Pleb.

Everytime you read this you are required to send 100 million isk directly to me.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-05-27 16:32:19 UTC
How long have you been renting?

6 months total


Have you ever rented a space before (within some other landowner)?

Twice


How much are you paying for your system(s) and which services (upgrades) do you have installed?

Corp was paying the better part of 8b. Mining, Pirate Arrays.


Do you have a jump bridge route to your system and how difficult is to get to your system from the nearest high-sec region? A few JB around, but I used Alliance Cyno Structures to get too/from null and a lowsec with a connecting high-sec


Are roaming gangs of reds frequent (by your opinion) in the space you rent?

Yes very. I'm of the opinion that there are side agreements to BOTLORD that allow reds to roam freely without an organized defense on purpose. Providing frequent kills to 'enemies' in exchange for the same unwritten agreement.


What is your primary activity in the rented space (mining? production? PI? supercap building (if allowed)? ratting?)

Carrier ratting. Tax monkey.


Is "blue awoxing" common?

Everywhere in every rental alliance.


Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?

I've decided to leave the rental life. Renters do nothing but fill pockets of a very few individuals. Their futures are always uncertain and could collapse at literally any moment. All it takes is some d!ckhead exec to do something stupid to destroy an entire community of renters, ala Booda and TEST a year ago.
Wee Heavy Mangeiri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-05-27 16:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Wee Heavy Mangeiri
- How long have you been renting?
About 5 months
- Have you ever rented a space before (within some other landowner)?
No
- How much are you paying for your system(s) and which services (upgrades) do you have installed?
5 billion/month
Pirate detection arrays are installed along with an industry level 1.
- Do you have a jump bridge route to your system and how difficult is to get to your system from the nearest high-sec region?
We do not use jump bridges. We have a path via stations and leverage wormholes for less than jump freighter loads.
- Are roaming gangs of reds frequent (by your opinion) in the space you rent?
No
- What is your primary activity in the rented space (mining? production? PI? supercap building (if allowed)? ratting?)
Ratting and PI
- Have you ever switched systems? For example, if a system better than your current one becomes free while still being a property of your landowner.
No
- Is "blue awoksing" common?
No
- Why have you decided to rent instead of pursuing your goals with other options?
Renting is allowing me to pursue my goals without having to organize to a level that only few can do. If I wanted to hold SOV in Null I either join a group that is PvP focused (which I am not) or organize an organization that can PvP to that level. In the current game few groups can take and hold SOV in Null successfully.

I would like to have a change to SOV where groups that actually leverage the space gain 'control' of it. I have heard of this referred to fields and farms. Until then I rent.
Minnie Hitwoman
Scorpion Road Industry
#20 - 2014-05-27 17:25:02 UTC
Some great responses here ... Keep them coming.Big smile
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