Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The word you are looking for is extrapolation, it worked in CAOD so it may work in forums outside of CAOD. There is precedent for this suggestion improving forum quality. There is evidence that the method works. Do you go to your doctor and say well we couldn't really fully know that the anti-biotic you suggest will cure this bacterial disease I have therefore we shouldn't do it and I hate it? No instead you accept that its been tested on certain diseases and could be extrapolated to work on your disease; a few weeks later your bacterial disease is dead imagine that.

You need to reread the suggestion again, newbies are accounted for point 5 is moot.

NPC alts are expressly made for trolling so yes they do troll more than the rest of the forums I don't need any statistics to back that up and I'm not giving you a double-blind peer reviewed journal article to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt to someone who will when confronted with that proof most likely deny reality.

CCP has stated many times before that players who find social groups they like, player corporations, stay with the game significantly longer than those who do not find social groups. They have a direct financial incentive to make player corporations more attractive than npc corporations. Play style has already been covered by the OP and the problems have been highlighted by Tyberius Franklin in a much more eloquent manner. That point has been covered yes some mains may be caught by these but, it will do more harm than good because it will remove significantly more npc alt trolls than mains it catches.

We've already established that NPC corporation members have the least risk and are the closest to invulnerable. They are immune to wardecs, awoxing, corp theft, highly resistant to ganking etc.

Finally the only thing your subscription guarantees is your ability to log in.

Yet your explanation was 'they are special, so get treated differently, NPC corps deserve to be spanked' in a para phrase.
People in NPC corps are not immune to retribution, people in NPC corps are in social groups most of the time. There is a lively chat going on in NPC corps chat channels most of the time.
They can't be war decced, that is true, but they already pay for that in a number of other ways, including sinking isk out of the game.
If they are trolls a player corp purely made for trolling also won't cause them to be any more vulnerable to retribution since they will never undock on the forum alt anyway, corps cost no upkeep, and they get to laugh at anyone dumb enough to wardec the corp hoping for a kill.

This is just part of your continuing attempts to force everyone out of NPC corps and into a situation where they are subservient to the goons. You can call it a 'Goonspiracy theory' if you want, it doesn't make it any less real what you are trying to do.

Yes, I read the Op, however I disagree, I believe Goon posting is driving down the quality of posting, so lets ban the goons from the forums...... Since I believe it therefore it must be true.

Except I've already debunked the CAOD argument.
And there is such a thing as a goon troll poster.

None of your arguments hold any real water, and simply match up with your previous rhetoric of destroying NPC corps

You ignored some points, or maybe you just forgot to address them . . . or had no effective rebuttal.

1. Extrapolation, in the sense that you are using it, lacks the two characteristics that make it useful in a more scientific sense: precision and accuracy. Sometimes, it still works. I can extrapolate that since people in the United States and Canada wear shoes, that people in Mexico also wear shoes. Sometimes it doesn't work. I can also extrapolate that since people in the United States and Canada speak English, that people in Mexico also speak English, but that would be wrong, eh. What if the patient drops dead in your anti-biotics scenario . . . or your Ban-NPC-posters-from-GD scenario?

2. If all newbies start out in NPC corps and all NPC corps are to have restrictions placed on their interaction with other players, then all newbies will have their interaction with other players restricted. That they will still have options for interacting is what is moot. They will always have options for communicating, even if we cut their tongues out and their fingers off.

3. NPC alts are expressly made for trolling . . . or hauling, scamming, AWOXing, cyno-ing, farming (of various types), simply learning a different aspect of the game without your main looking like a 'tard, having fun, good-posting, and probably a lot of other reasons. Why do you think everybody should have to log into their main whenever they want to say something? Why do you think beating up their alt is unsatisfactory retribution for if they troll on the forums?

4. An NPC corporation IS a social group.

5. We're not immune to war. We're immune to CONCORD-sanctioned war. We're not immune to AWOXing. We're immune to player-corporation-based AWOXing. We're not immune to having our stuff stolen. We're immune to certain game mechanics that allow people to take ours stuff without asking. And, as I've already stated, I have personally been suicide ganked 4 times (that I recall) and had 2 more attempts made. What special "resistance" are you referring to? I'll tell you if I have that resistance. (I probably don't.)

6. The ability to log into the forums (and participate) is something our subscription currently allows, but I don't think there is any guarantee that it will always be so, and I think our "right" to log into Tranquility could some day be called into question, too. The price of such priveleges is not just our subscription fee, but also vigilance and a willingness to speak and act against those who would threaten them.

I don't have an alt.
Could you please point out which of those types of NPC alts needs to have their forum posting priveleges revoked and also, could you explain why?



If you lack the intelligence and creativity to wage war against me or AWOX me (which, I suspect you do, indeed, lack the intelligence and creativity) . . . that's not my problem, nor is it CCP's problem. How is banning me from the forums supposed to help you with that?



We're talking about the ability to express our opinions. Some people don't like that other people have that ability. They're trying to limit that ability. Limiting the ability of others to express their opinions is bad. We should always stand against that, even when we don't agree with the opinion or when it seems a trivial matter. Are you caught up, yet?



I believe the word you were looking for was "paranoid". What's wrong with being paranoid?

Why would CCP stop me from logging into Tranquility? I dunno. Why would they stop me from looking at the CAOD sub-forum? I dunno. Why would someone lie about a video game? I dunno. Why would some people in the world try to oppress others when they can just live in peace and harmony? I dunno. All I know is that there are people out there that like to make problems. I'd better have some solutions ready.

You missed this, I think.

Which is it?

Additionally I posted further down that the level of trolling in the places I hang out most is basically non-existent and a lot of the good content comes from NPC corps. For clarity that'll be missions & plexes, ships and mods, warfare and tactics.

I think we have fundamentally different forum experiences - you might consider that before applying an exclusion list to forums you do not frequent - perhaps a better idea would be listing a very small list of the sub forums to apply your idea in to start with, rather than a select few exempt.

I love this idea so much.

Can we add a minimum account age for posting new threads in F&I, too? A couple of years, at least? That would really cut down on the, "Hay guize, I know I've been here for like 3 days but how have you guys not noticed this HUGE problem with gankrz and stuff don't u know how to run an MMO?!?!?" posts. And the "[Idea] Let us fly our ships in first person!"

1.What qualitative data are you suggesting we have? Your biased opinion is not qualitative data.

2. Your OP suggests we shut new players out of the most active sub-forum (and most of the sub-forums). That's what some of us are objecting to. Your method of accounting for them is unacceptable. The status quo is far better. You are the one advocating for a change, and your "accounting for them" IS the change. Now, prove that it is a worthwhile change.

Maybe you should rewrite the OP until it says what you actually intend for it to say. Right now, what it says is essentially that you believe some players in group_x are trolls. All players in group_x have unfair advantages. Change_y would remedy the problematic combination of group_x trolling while having an unfair advantages. And, that making change_y to group_x either doesn't hurt the non-trolls in that group (which is false) or that the offenses of the trolls in group_x are so egregious that change_y is worth making despite the collateral damage.

Well, you have yet to prove that group_x have an unfair advantage while trolling, that change_y would fix that, that change_y is not hurting non-trolls in group_x or is worth making despite hurting non-trolls in group_x, and that group_a-z are not also deserving of having change_y made to their posting abilities because those groups also harbor trolls, i.e. you have yet to prove ANYTHING. Let me help you out:

NPC corp members are not immune or resistant to aggression nor do they have any special advantage, if for no other reason than that anyone can acquire NPC corp member status.
NPC corp posters are not more often trolls than other posters.
Your change would not significantly curb trolling in these forums, if for no other reason than that anyone can acquire player corp members status.
Forcing current NPC corp members to leave those corps or role forum-posting alts would be potentially be a significant, needlesss, and useless inconvenience to non-trolls in NPC corps.
Goonswarm is just as guilty of harboring trolls and should also have their posting restricted if we go that route.

3. Who is "we"? You may have established that NPC alts are for trolling in your own mind; maybe that's what you do with them, but did you bother to consult anyone else before declaring a consensus? You can't even tell us definitively what trolling is, letalone who are trolls. Before we start banning large swaths of players from the forum preemptively for trolling, shouldn't we at the very least establish some clear and reasonable guidlines for declaring them to be pre-trolls?

If an NPC corp player manages to convince you that he's friendly (or harmless), then uses that pretense to get a tactical advantage over you and destroy you, that's an AWOX.
If an NPC corp player continually attempts to disrupt your operation in-game, that's waging war. There are NPC corp players. There are no NPC corp bullets or NPC corp damage. Damage is damage and a kill is a kill. War is war. It doesn't require a declaration.
If NPC corp players can't steal corporations, then you wouldn't mind giving me or one of my fellow SWArtans director roles in Goonwaffe; right?

4. An NPC corp may not be a "real" corp, but it's at least a "fake" corp. Certain mechanics are off limits to us, but that mostly just means we'd have to do certain tasks differently. It's the same as my saying that SomethingAwful is not a "real" community. It's just website. Does it matter?

As for being risk averse, newbie hating, bitter vets . . . my experience has been much different. I don't know if you got into a bad NPC corp or you just met the wrong people. Maybe they were alts of large null sec alliance bloc members!

5. When do NPC corp players use false pretenses to kill others? Never! We would not kill you if we were your friends, and we're your friends if we says so. So, warp to belt 1 next time you see one of us in local and we'll have cookies and milk to share with you there, mmmmkay? (see # 3)

6. If the EULA said you had to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Not at the expense of denying good posters the ability to post.

F&I has actually in the threads leading up to the impending expansion demonstrated quite clearly the capacity for non-NPC corp posters to derail and severely degrade conversation. I think it worth asking why I should be banned from posting in other places while certain individuals who have used their posting privileges in highly abusive ways should be allowed to continue to post everywhere because of their corp ticker.

More than that I don't believe the forums should be used as leverage for gameplay decisions by CCP. If players want to pursue the reasoning of consequence fine, though that gives legitimacy to the act of separating ones posts from ones main, but it shouldn't be the role of CCP to un-level the field of conversation and the influence it holds.