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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2821 - 2014-05-26 22:27:26 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Yes, the example was to show that the claimed overpowered DPS actually could not exist when application, tank, and hybrid were all sought at the same time.

The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.

Not sure which meaning of the word "hybrid" are you using there.

With enough gank and range, you don't need much tank.
Nothing shows it better than some Mach fits.

My fit will be with 3 DLA probably, meaning that my sentries will be as deadly as before, but with the added missle awesomeness.
That's a clear upgrade for me.

I didn't seek tank already, a 3 or max 4 slot tank is what I do on TQ already with the current lower dps, meaning that I take more damage.
After the changes, my tank can be made even lighter for added dps -> more killing -> more iskies an hour.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2822 - 2014-05-26 22:29:03 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.



Hardly, if you really must go nutz with the drone mods you can, in fact you can take it down to four launcher with drone scopes and get a ghetto domi build that will STILL out-damage the current rattler, and maybe even keep the tank, not to different from the current warden/cruise rattler that I see fittings for all of the time.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2823 - 2014-05-26 22:30:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.


Which missile boat has fully bonused sentries?

You do understand that if you are seeking to maximise bonused missiles and tank and missile application. that those mean you cannot put in drone damage amplifiers, omnidirectional tracking links etc?

So your drone bonus is really not exactly relevent apart from minor interest?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2824 - 2014-05-26 23:08:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.


Which missile boat has fully bonused sentries?

Which true Missile Boat only has 7.5 launchers?

The drones are a dps shortage make up, nothing more.

The new rattlesnake looks ok on paper but is still outperformed (on Sisi) by everything i have compared it to for ratting.

As a pirate battleship - It is - but in name only - it has nothing to make it best choice over anything else available.
A T2 cruiser can outperform a Rattlesnake when it comes to PVE - Why buy a Rattlesnake?
It certainly isn't for the prestige of owning 1, when you tell someone you own a pimped NM, they often say "nice - good ship", tell someone you own a pimped Rattlesnake and the response is usually "why"

Less diverse, tanks like a brick, slower than the average snail and outperformed by everything from, T2 cruisers to every other pirate battleship out there (except Nestor but that is just not worth mentioning, we all know how terrible it is) and a few T1 battleships simply make the Snake look really bad by comparison.

I have wondered, presuming there was some planning went into the Super Drone Concept and it wasn't thought up in 5 mins, why it wasn't applied to the SOE line of ships as something new (when they were new).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2825 - 2014-05-26 23:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
@Sgt Ocker. I dont see how that can be the case as it is, in essence, a tanky fleet typhoon. And I've seen what they can do - they chew through rats like an angry demon of legend.

T2 cruisers cannot hold a candle to that ship, I expect the same of the rattlesnake.

Edit: What fit were you using?

I suggest something along the lines of

Fury Cruise
2x Meta 4 TPs
2x Fed Navy Omnis (need faction for CPU)
3 CN BCU (need faction for CPU)
3 DDA
Rigor Rigs

High end skills should see that wipe the floor with everything. Just fill in the blanks with DLA & active tanking mods. Dont worry about no special damage application bonuses, it works just fine.

Obviously I assume this is PvE Cool


Edit2: For those that don't have the required high skill levels, I can understand why they may feel underwhelmed. It demands near perfect skills in different disciplines - without fury it's weaksauce. But then....what is a machariel without 800mm AC-IIs?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2826 - 2014-05-26 23:29:44 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

The end result will be where the ship becomes a missile boat, with drones regulated to a minor supporting role.
The problem is that other missile boats just do it better. Far far better.


Which missile boat has fully bonused sentries?

Which true Missile Boat only has 7.5 launchers?

The drones are a dps shortage make up, nothing more.

The new rattlesnake looks ok on paper but is still outperformed (on Sisi) by everything i have compared it to for ratting.

As a pirate battleship - It is - but in name only - it has nothing to make it best choice over anything else available.
A T2 cruiser can outperform a Rattlesnake when it comes to PVE - Why buy a Rattlesnake?
It certainly isn't for the prestige of owning 1, when you tell someone you own a pimped NM, they often say "nice - good ship", tell someone you own a pimped Rattlesnake and the response is usually "why"

Less diverse, tanks like a brick, slower than the average snail and outperformed by everything from, T2 cruisers to every other pirate battleship out there (except Nestor but that is just not worth mentioning, we all know how terrible it is) and a few T1 battleships simply make the Snake look really bad by comparison.

I have wondered, presuming there was some planning went into the Super Drone Concept and it wasn't thought up in 5 mins, why it wasn't applied to the SOE line of ships as something new (when they were new).


There are a very narrow sub set of activities that an ishtar is comparable to the new rattler.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2827 - 2014-05-26 23:32:06 UTC
afkalt wrote:
@Sgt Ocker. I dont see how that can be the case as it is, in essence, a tanky fleet typhoon. And I've seen what they can do - they chew through rats like an angry demon of legend.

T2 cruisers cannot hold a candle to that ship, I expect the same of the rattlesnake.


True that.

And speaking of T2 cruisers, I've just about nailed down the go-to PvP fit for the Snake.

Basically, you treat it like it's a giant Sacrilege. Double active tank fed by a cap booster, rapid heavy missiles, drones to taste. The real strength of the ship is the ability to project it's DPS to well, well past brawling range, in addition to being able to throw down at point blank with the best of them. And God help the other guy if the Rattlesnake has long range web support like a Rapier, Loki, or Bhaalgorn.

Depending on your tastes, the utility high can be filled with a remote repper for your drones (works great for brawling), a heavy neut, or whatever else fits your fancy.

It fields a MJD to pop out of range of anyone kiting with a disruptor.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2828 - 2014-05-26 23:32:18 UTC
Quote malcanis

Quote:
The Rattler damb well ought to be better; it's a pirate faction ship, and should be two notches better than a navy faction ship.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2829 - 2014-05-26 23:35:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
@Sgt Ocker. I dont see how that can be the case as it is, in essence, a tanky fleet typhoon. And I've seen what they can do - they chew through rats like an angry demon of legend.

T2 cruisers cannot hold a candle to that ship, I expect the same of the rattlesnake.


True that.

And speaking of T2 cruisers, I've just about nailed down the go-to PvP fit for the Snake.

Basically, you treat it like it's a giant Sacrilege. Double active tank fed by a cap booster, rapid heavy missiles, drones to taste. The real strength of the ship is the ability to project it's DPS to well, well past brawling range, in addition to being able to throw down at point blank with the best of them. And God help the other guy if the Rattlesnake has long range web support like a Rapier, Loki, or Bhaalgorn.

Depending on your tastes, the utility high can be filled with a remote repper for your drones (works great for brawling), a heavy neut, or whatever else fits your fancy.

It fields a MJD to pop out of range of anyone kiting with a disruptor.



So for you it is the bonus to rapid heavy missiles that provides you with value?
That's it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2830 - 2014-05-26 23:36:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
@Sgt Ocker. I dont see how that can be the case as it is, in essence, a tanky fleet typhoon. And I've seen what they can do - they chew through rats like an angry demon of legend.

T2 cruisers cannot hold a candle to that ship, I expect the same of the rattlesnake.

Simple really - When it comes to making isk (PVE) I want a ship that is the fastest most efficient and cheapest (to use) to get the job done.
Rattlesnake used to perform 2 of 3 quite well and was able to do this while semi afk, often sitting in a pvp fleet on another toon.
Kronos Snake will require more attention to complete its task, cost more to complete its task (buying missiles) and be no faster completing a given task than it is now.

Idea If I wanted a Battleship Missile boat with Drone support - I would buy a TFI.

Arrow Rattlesnake "was" a Drone Battleship with missile support - Now it is some hybrid thing that excels at neither Drones or Missiles.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2831 - 2014-05-26 23:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
And it is - aside from the fitting it is better in every way. The only thing keeping fleet typhoons from blotting out the sun in PvE-land is the wafter-thin-balls-of-steel-kill-or-be-killed-tank™. A rattlesnake tanks like a BOSS and giving it those DPS levels means that, actually, the passive regen alone (on an ACTIVE fit) is sufficient.

But...not many people seem to believe the ferocity of said fleet typhoon and it is the only frame of reference here. All skills V, no implants and the weakest sentries and it'll still lay down 1300+ DPS out to lock range - this thing will two shot low bounty battleships. A rattlesnake is there, or thereabouts but with at least twice the tank.


Edit: If you're semi afking it - you cant really complain in the context of it being pirate and special. Nothing wrong with a bit of multiboxing/background missioning - but you can't complain about the performance when you're not trying Smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2832 - 2014-05-26 23:39:23 UTC
Quote:


Arrow Rattlesnake "was" a Drone Battleship with missile support - Now it is some hybrid thing that excels at neither Drones or Missiles.


I'm wagering the sum will be better than the parts in this case
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2833 - 2014-05-26 23:41:05 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So for you it is the bonus to rapid heavy missiles that provides you with value?
That's it?


That's what made an otherwise completely forgettable ship worthwhile, after nearly a decade of being worthless.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2834 - 2014-05-26 23:48:59 UTC
And what exactly is wrong with 722 dps out to 148 , 1300 dps out to 99 with navy cruises and a 4 slot shield tank ?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2835 - 2014-05-26 23:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So for you it is the bonus to rapid heavy missiles that provides you with value?
That's it?


That's what made an otherwise completely forgettable ship worthwhile, after nearly a decade of being worthless.



Unfortunately for many, the RHML are purely a gimmick that has no real use in the way they use it, I am pleased you have a valid use for the ship, but you will be in the minority.

No one is asking for your benefit to be taken away, they are simply seeking an alternative choice to fit the ship that may suit other playstyles.

I personally am looking for the ability of both drones or missiles to be reasonable choices to optimise fittings for.

Where it can be a good drone boat with missile support, or a good missile boat with effective drone support.

To enable effective PvP, anomaly running, PvE missioning, for a wide number of players.
By it's very nature as a hybrid, it should have options.
And If it gained the Option of greater mobility through Gila bonused Medium drones balanced to battleship levels, would that not assist on your scenario too?

They would work nicely with Rapid heavy missiles. As well as all other missiles either as primary or support damage.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2836 - 2014-05-26 23:57:23 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Quote:


Arrow Rattlesnake "was" a Drone Battleship with missile support - Now it is some hybrid thing that excels at neither Drones or Missiles.


I'm wagering the sum will be better than the parts in this case

I would bet you would lose that wager - I have spent hours on SISI with the Snake - My AFKTAR outperforms it in every way.
You can't afk a Snake because missiles don't fire unless you tell them to. Drones alone, the DPS is still shy of completing in acceptable times.
One plus - For semi AFK, Ogres and Beserkers perform well, out to about 35k to 40k - Past that and they die before you can recall them once they get targeted by NPC's.

If you are doing PVE and TANK is your highest priority using what is primarily a mid to long range platform - You are doing it wrong.
If you are doing PVE because you like it - By all means use a Rattlesnake, it will give you hours of "fun".
If you do PVE as a means to an end - Making isk - Buy an Ishtar or a Domi.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2837 - 2014-05-27 01:31:13 UTC
Looking through this, as a drone nut, I can say that I am glad I sold my rattlensake. I would not enjoy playing this ship.

Let me ask the dumb question:

Why give a ship a bonus it can't use? Rather bluntly, they pretty much ended this ship as a drone boat, and made it Raven Junior.
M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2838 - 2014-05-27 01:44:16 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Looking through this, as a drone nut, I can say that I am glad I sold my rattlensake. I would not enjoy playing this ship.

Let me ask the dumb question:

Why give a ship a bonus it can't use? Rather bluntly, they pretty much ended this ship as a drone boat, and made it Raven Junior.


What bonus can't it use?
It has a drone bonus. It has drones
It has a shield resistance bonus. It has shields
It has a missile damage bonus. It has missile launchers
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2839 - 2014-05-27 01:54:04 UTC
M Key wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Looking through this, as a drone nut, I can say that I am glad I sold my rattlensake. I would not enjoy playing this ship.

Let me ask the dumb question:

Why give a ship a bonus it can't use? Rather bluntly, they pretty much ended this ship as a drone boat, and made it Raven Junior.


What bonus can't it use?
It has a drone bonus. It has drones
It has a shield resistance bonus. It has shields
It has a missile damage bonus. It has missile launchers




Much better than Nestor and Blarg

....point bonus on a battleship?
...scan bonus s I can warp you at 2Au....

.....yeah
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2840 - 2014-05-27 03:10:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And it is - aside from the fitting it is better in every way. The only thing keeping fleet typhoons from blotting out the sun in PvE-land is the wafter-thin-balls-of-steel-kill-or-be-killed-tank™. A rattlesnake tanks like a BOSS and giving it those DPS levels means that, actually, the passive regen alone (on an ACTIVE fit) is sufficient.

But...not many people seem to believe the ferocity of said fleet typhoon and it is the only frame of reference here. All skills V, no implants and the weakest sentries and it'll still lay down 1300+ DPS out to lock range - this thing will two shot low bounty battleships. A rattlesnake is there, or thereabouts but with at least twice the tank.


Edit: If you're semi afking it - you cant really complain in the context of it being pirate and special. Nothing wrong with a bit of multiboxing/background missioning - but you can't complain about the performance when you're not trying Smile


A good comparison with the phoon/navy phoon, but apart of both being very very tight fits (i didnt bother to make them work, the cpu was >6%), you still miss 2 mid slots in the end (omni? tank? tp?), if we are talking high end fury dps, still do less applied dps than the rattler (the navy one by 40 :) ) and will have probably bigger problems and delays with cruisers, bc and frigates, due to low drone dps.

The navy phoon wins by 30 applied dps with navy cruises :)

But yes, while the rattler comes on top, its still nothing you would write home about.