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Dev Blog: Delivering The Industry New Eden Deserves!

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Aluka 7th
#201 - 2014-05-16 07:46:21 UTC
Marsan wrote:
I still don't understand how the Goons will be able to take over Industry or how NS groups will be able to corner the market to any degree. I see things working out in one of the following ways:

1) Various NS groups grab all the best teams and start producing things at reduced cost. They drop the prices and drive everyone else out of the market. NS Group A under cuts Group B, and prices fall even more as the cycle continues. Eventual this kills the extreme profitability of producing things in NS and the various NS groups give up on controlling the market and instead reap profit in targeted areas.

2) Various NS groups grab all the best teams and start producing things at reduced cost. They drop the prices and drive everyone else out of the market. By some miracle the various NS manage to maintain a cartel. Independent groups spring up in Provi, and other NS areas and manage to compete with NS. rices fall even more as the cycle continues. Eventual this kills the extreme profitability of producing things in NS and the various NS groups give up on controlling the market and instead reap profit in targeted areas.

3) Various NS groups grab all the best teams and start producing things at reduced cost. They drop the prices and drive everyone else out of the market. By some miracle the various NS manage to maintain a cartel. Independent groups spring up in Provi, and other NS areas and manage to compete with NS. The Cartel smashes the various areas allowing for Independent Industrialists, and ramps prices even more. CCP realizes things are out of control and breaks up the Cartel in the next patch.

4) The Goons, N3 and others realize the pain that trying to corner all/most of industrial manufacturing will cause them, and they won't be able to do it for long. Instead they grab targeted teams, and concentrate on producing a narrow range of products that they can make at insanely cheap prices, and easily/cheaply transport to Jita. Certain products become much cheaper, and are only built in NS. On occasion the Goons drop the prices on a good, pricing everyone out of the market, wait for everyone to stop producing the good, then restrict supply, and make insane profits unloading their reserve as the price climbs....



I would put my money on number 4. But IMHO with that many people 0.0 alliances have, their focus won't be that narrow.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2014-05-16 10:56:12 UTC
I'd go for number 4 as you only need the best team to corner the market since they by definition allow you to produce better than any one else with a similar team. Throw in the boosted ores, ore refining and materials bonus for outposts and nobody will be able to compete.
Sienna Toth
Pulsar Phisics Shipyards
#203 - 2014-05-17 17:56:39 UTC
I know at least 1 reason CCP doesn't publish changes in advance is because they don't want to throw that markets into a tailspin. A secondary reason is they actually don't know how much of the proposed content will actually make it into the update. Because of the nature of this change it is FAR SMARTER to publish the changes they know will be ready well in advance of the deployment. I point back to the Fuel Block debacle of 2012 where they published a change which was not mature enough for deployment and this drove a ton of people out of the game.

I am a software developer in my real life so I can understand how easily a software developer can think a change is a good idea when in fact from a users perspective it might be a trainwreck.

The current system has ripple effects all over EvE. The miner Mines, low-sec towers produce Moon Goo. The industrialist burn Ice and PI to produce goods and mine Goo. Station science slot availability (nearly non-existent) is driving the need for the Indi POS towers.

If slots within EvE industry are removed and owning a POS tower becomes an economic disadvantage the ripple effects will be catastrophic to the EvE Economy. If science slots become generally available at a cost lower than POS operating costs this is going to get ugly. The DEVs have to take care that there is a 400-700M advantage per tower (fuel cost) or post deployment the industrialists will pull the plug on production towers across EvE. The reduced need for fuel blocks will cause PI and Ice markets to implode, not to mention the tower, array, and battery modules could be worth more as recycleables.

Another unknown is the WorkTeam tax. We read text that indicate that the WorkTeam tax will be applied across that system which also indicates to me that it applies to the POS towers also. This is really relatively minor but it will eat into margins.

All this text for 2 points:
1) Publish specifics of what CCP knows will be in the Circes Deployment (22 July) as soon as possible. Not the screenies, The details of the BPC/BPO, slot changes, and WrokTeam Tax changes.

2) Please make sure CCP understands that the common perception in a large part of the community is that Industrial POS Towers are about to become irrelevant and that the Ice and PI markets are about to implode.
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#204 - 2014-05-17 22:34:12 UTC
Being as constructive as I can be the only fair thing to do is give high sec everything that null sec has considering that BLUE Sec is now getting a better advantage than high sec in mining and industry.

High dollar rats, ALL the moons and the ability to mine them...ABC ores etc.

This whole industrial "revamp" is so prejudiced against high sec it's hard to believe anyone at CCP could consider this an expansion.

More like a contraction...of high sec sub numbers.

But maybe I am wrong...maybe CCP will do just fine with CFC online. Live feeds from Something Awful and 4chan on the gate screens....that should do well with the mass market.

After 6 yrs in this game paying for multiple accounts, I guess this is what I deserve

This account expires in about 3 weeks...the rest are right behind it.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
ST0NER SMURF
Vrix Nation
#205 - 2014-05-18 08:03:16 UTC
can i have ya stuff ? i will do good thinghs with it ;)

but yeah ya right, nerfing highsec again and again wil mean less accounts

__________________________________________________________________ 

♫ When your pod gets blown to bits ♪♫ And you lose your implant fits ♪\☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/
Dorna Loone
Dark Star Demolition
#206 - 2014-05-19 18:40:13 UTC
As a manufacturer, my two concerns are 1) the variable manufacturing slot cost and 2) the 'teams' concept.
Both add new variables into the 'cost of manufacture' calculation and, in my opinion, add a lot of complication for no gain for the player. Even more complicated too if you need to make 'components' first to build the final product.
If you bear in mind that profit margins on manufacture are typically 10% it seems that will easily be removed by these changes, although prices may simply go up to compensate. That isn't guaranteed though as people sell now with no idea of cost and the complication can only make that worse.
I will have to try the pudding first, but it does seem quite possible that it could remove the entertainment that I currently find in manufacturing replacing it with an unatractive calculation fest.
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#207 - 2014-05-21 00:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao
The most amazing thing about this now delayed debacle is the that the Goon mouthpieces seem to have all quit talking.

Gee, I wonder why???

Prolly too busy building their alt corps for high sec....or maybe someone told them to clam up?


Standings....we don't need no stinkin standings!


You don't really think Goons mine do ya? Lol

CCP you've been scammed....wake up!

Take the hit and admit it's a bad move for the game, just don't screw us folks who've been supplying Null Sec for years.


You know what's in their wallets. I bet most of the liquid isk in Eve is in Null Sec Alliance hands and now they want MORE.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Udonor
Doomheim
#208 - 2014-05-22 08:14:14 UTC
Ugh! Where is the PVP twist on this feature? Simply put the real life money is the PVP players CCP!


So I suggest that PVP players can take Teams hostage and redirect their efforts. Very much like FW complexes only in hi sec.

Basically Industry Teams and their families live in special system complexes. CONCORD has been bribed enough not to take action against the use of Inferno - but not enough to actively respond and defend users against assaults.

Complexes might however have ship size restrictions. Those restrictions might vary based on system security and team levels. I suggest rookie to cruiser sized gate restriction. (Special sub-frigate size rookie just for the fun of it.) Hmmm...maybe even restrictions on how many ships and how long each ship can stay before being forcably ejected.

Not sure how it would work but maybe winners (pirates/mercs) capture a cargo container full of family members or occasionally actual team member -- then auction them for ransom. Until someone buys the cargo and turns them in at main station to system-wide mission agent - industry team is crippled. Of course industrialist can hire mercs to defend the team as well.
Princess Sparrow
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#209 - 2014-05-26 19:29:12 UTC
Does this release makes isboxing illegal? Otherwise, all you're doing is making changes that impact fleets of 20 identical skiffs.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#210 - 2014-05-26 21:53:12 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Being as constructive as I can be the only fair thing to do is give high sec everything that null sec has considering that BLUE Sec is now getting a better advantage than high sec in mining and industry.
High dollar rats, ALL the moons and the ability to mine them...ABC ores etc.
This whole industrial "revamp" is so prejudiced against high sec it's hard to believe anyone at CCP could consider this an expansion.
More like a contraction...of high sec sub numbers.
But maybe I am wrong...maybe CCP will do just fine with CFC online. Live feeds from Something Awful and 4chan on the gate screens....that should do well with the mass market.
After 6 yrs in this game paying for multiple accounts, I guess this is what I deserve
This account expires in about 3 weeks...the rest are right behind it.


I have several major industrial players in my corporation and they are unsubbing as we speak.
My indy alt is just waiting for her time to run out.
These massive number of incoming changes are killing the fun and usefulness of small corporations building and mining.
Nerfing high sec isn't going to help null sec for too long. People won't like being serfs to the big null groups at crappy rates for too long. So High sec will consist almost entirely of L4 Mission Blitzers and Incursions runners. It won't be profitable to do industry until many many people have unsubbed and left the game and the limited supply drives prices up enough to where its worth your time. Unless of course you are in a large null sec group with a Minmatar outpost.
Also the High sec POS changes with being unable to lockdown BPOs as they will now have to be in the POS itself will utterly destroy corps ability to control their assets. There will be a large number of 1 man corps popping up to do some of these functions but many POSes will be taken down as they no longer serve a point. PI will crash, ICE will crash. Players who buy plex with PI will quit and eve will failscade relatively quickly after that. So please CCP stop this major unwanted overhaul of everything.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#211 - 2014-05-26 21:58:52 UTC
I do actually like the idea of removing the Rorqual compression BPOs. They never made sense anyways.

New and improved UI for industry is a good idea. Less clicks makes it faster. That is about all the change that was needed.
Pretty much everyone would be on board for a faster better UI.

New ships also cool. Ship balance changes. Reducing drone server load and not really affecting other things. All good.

Can we stick with the near unilaterally good ideas and skip the ill conceived and drastically game altering ones.

Radically derailing industry as well know it....
Reprocessing mega nerf. Where are all the minerals going to come from now?
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#212 - 2014-05-27 23:04:36 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
Dibble Dabble wrote:
Then you have the need to move BPO's to different system to build so unlock the BPO, undock, pop your BPO is gone. No thanks.


Instant undocks are instant. Even an orca leaving a medium POS is in warp before it's out of the shields.

There's 0 risk in hisec, as long as you log in daily.


I have a life. A real one outside this game. I will NOT be made to login daily for a pastime.
Sigras
Conglomo
#213 - 2014-05-30 09:16:01 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Dibble Dabble wrote:
Then you have the need to move BPO's to different system to build so unlock the BPO, undock, pop your BPO is gone. No thanks.


Instant undocks are instant. Even an orca leaving a medium POS is in warp before it's out of the shields.

There's 0 risk in hisec, as long as you log in daily.


I have a life. A real one outside this game. I will NOT be made to login daily for a pastime.

Then dont use a POS... I feel like if you cant be asked to log in once a day, you probably shouldnt put assets in space...

Also it isnt even once a day... it's only when you get war decced and seriously you can have your phone set up to alert you if you get war decced.

If you cant be asked to do that, I dont even know what to say...
Sigras
Conglomo
#214 - 2014-05-30 09:18:48 UTC
Dibble Dabble wrote:
You have done nothing to make my friends and I re-consider our decision to cease empire industry. At the last count 15 accounts had been mothballed a few more will go in the coming weeks.

We have one POS remaining to finish off some work and with the delay may add some research jobs but I am not sure any of us can be arsed.

Remember eve is supposed to be fun no matter if you blowing crap up or making ISK from mining, industry and PVE. The changes to Industry in particular the need to have the BPO in the POS makes having a research POS to damn risky. Then you have the need to move BPO's to different system to build so unlock the BPO, undock, pop your BPO is gone. No thanks.

The changes increase the risk for established industry corps based in empire to the point where the risk is too great, the game becomes a job. Why bother? We all have jobs in real life we don't want another.

Not all our accounts have been mothballed some may decided to do some PVE or join a null sec alliance, most have the funds to plex their accounts for a long time. However doing industry in empire, you can shove that where the sun don't shine.

good, higher profit margins for me...

BTW can I have your BPOs?

seriously if you cant figure out one of the several completely safe ways to do industry in high sec after this change I dont even know how you do industry currently...
Anathema Device
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2014-06-06 13:50:38 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
It's going to be industry for the few, instead of industry as a choice of career, no matter where you choose to live. Ie, highsec, lowsec or nullsec. Highsec is officially going to be gone from this picture. It is a tragedy.

If HiSec margins crash then some people may quit EVE or move on from being an industrialist. Worst case sees a decline in HiSec production but there will be some people who continue. Prices will find new levels, life will go on.

CCP's proposed translation of BPOs is childish. Luckily I can sit back without being too concerned and watch the train wreck if CCP screws this up.