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Restrict NPC Corporation Posting Abilities.

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Rass Kass
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#401 - 2014-05-26 17:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rass Kass
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
This thread doesn't make sense with the narrative that La Nariz is espousing. Let's try a different one:

La Nariz doesn't like NPC corps. He thinks he should have "full access" to every player in the game. He thinks NPC corps unfairly protect the players who use them and that his playstyle is the purer, truer form of EVE Online, and that all players who do not "play the game the right way" (i.e. the way that will allow him to dominate them) should effectively be ejected from the game.

Silencing NPC corp players removes their ability to advocate for themselves and their playstyle. "The pen is mightier than the sword.", it has been said. And, so, this thread can be seen as an attempt to disarm certain groups of players, specifically those in NPC corps.

Furthermore, restricting posting to groups of 10 or more players targets another clustering of players that are a "threat" to La Nariz's domination: independent and small group operators. These people are less likely to submit to his playstyle. Their stubbornness and variable approaches to the game make it hard for someone like him to control them. They do their own thing, their own way, for their own reasons and they resist hegemony. Often times, these players are not in actual corporations of 10+ because of their independence, but they will still play together. For example: half the group is in one corp, half the group is in another corp. If they had to field 10 people in a corporation, that corporation would make for a fatter target than two 5-man corporations or ten 1-man corporations.

I can't really estimate how many Goon-alts exist in NPC corporations, but I know it to be a significant number, and a good deal of the trolling and other nefarious activity that La Nariz decries is actually perpetrated by the alts of players like himself. If players like him really cared so much about the integrity of the game, why would they abuse game mechanics in that way?

On the surface, La Nariz' proposal seems to be a bad solution to a mild problem. But if viewed as an attempt to wield a political weapon against certain groups of players who he hasn't been able to bring to heel, it makes a lot more sense.



This.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2014-05-26 17:36:16 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
This thread doesn't make sense with the narrative that La Nariz is espousing. Let's try a different one:

La Nariz doesn't like NPC corps. He thinks he should have "full access" to every player in the game. He thinks NPC corps unfairly protect the players who use them and that his playstyle is the purer, truer form of EVE Online, and that all players who do not "play the game the right way" (i.e. the way that will allow him to dominate them) should effectively be ejected from the game.

Silencing NPC corp players removes their ability to advocate for themselves and their playstyle. "The pen is mightier than the sword.", it has been said. And, so, this thread can be seen as an attempt to disarm certain groups of players, specifically those in NPC corps.

Furthermore, restricting posting to groups of 10 or more players targets another clustering of players that are a "threat" to La Nariz's domination: independent and small group operators. These people are less likely to submit to his playstyle. Their stubbornness and variable approaches to the game make it hard for someone like him to control them. They do their own thing, their own way, for their own reasons and they resist hegemony. Often times, these players are not in actual corporations of 10+ because of their independence, but they will still play together. For example: half the group is in one corp, half the group is in another corp. If they had to field 10 people in a corporation, that corporation would make for a fatter target than two 5-man corporations or ten 1-man corporations.

I can't really estimate how many Goon-alts exist in NPC corporations, but I know it to be a significant number, and a good deal of the trolling and other nefarious activity that La Nariz decries is actually perpetrated by the alts of players like himself. If players like him really cared so much about the integrity of the game, why would they abuse game mechanics in that way?

On the surface, La Nariz' proposal seems to be a bad solution to a mild problem. But if viewed as an attempt to wield a political weapon against certain groups of players who he hasn't been able to bring to heel, it makes a lot more sense.


You definitely did not read the OP NPC corporations members still have access to F&I where they can "voice their opinion about their playstyle." Also for the elevendyith time forum trolling is not a playstyle its a violation of the rules.

Wrong, I think all players should have the same advantage I do. I have access to the GIA which is the best espionage network in the game; we have and can find out any NPC alt identity. I think all of the other corporations that don't have the same resources I do should have that same advantage, basically leveling the playing field. I could care less about other people's playstyle play however you want but, I want a level playing field.

The suggestion is based on existing evidence that the restrictions proposed significantly improved the quality of CAOD and when extrapolated to other forums will also improve their quality as well.

Your goonspiracy is at least fresh for now.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#403 - 2014-05-26 17:39:07 UTC
Rass Kass wrote:
Actually, I find the ship to ship combat in Eve uninteresting. I enjoy other aspects of the game. Like roaming thru WH space, traveling thru null and other things that put me at risk constantly. See what happens when you assume. My play style doesn't require a PC. The idea that banning NPC corp members from posting on large swaths of the forums is a BAD idea. It's easily bypassed.

As stated previously by myself and many others, give ISD's more tools.

Things such as muting an account for 24 hrs from a thread while the community teams looks into handing out stiffer punishment. The OP can lock out NPC corp members from posting(this is borderline) in a thread. Allowing people to filter out corps and/or alliances. Even downvoting could be implemented.

The outright banning people from posting due to being in a NPC corp is a horrible idea.

It may be time to push CCP for full time forum management by paid personnel if people think trolling is that big of an issue.


Very little in the game requires a corporation to do. Very much in the game is made easier and/or more fun by being a member of a corporation. Some activities will be enhanced by in game mechanics. Others will be enhanced by the social aspect.

I see no reason why both suggestions have to be mutually exclusive. Give the ISDs more tools and enact my suggestion, I've already stated many more times before that this is only part of the solution.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2014-05-26 17:43:48 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Isn't this entire thread all about the meta though?

This is what we're really talking about, create a thread to encourage the view that every member of an npc corp is worth less than members of a player corp to the point that they should be denied the right to fully participate in the forums.

The goal being to make life uncomfortable for npc Corp members, because the op and his alliance want to force a change in the game that they hope they'll benefit from.


No the thread is about improving the quality of the forums. Briefly, this suggestion attempts to do this by reducing ISD/Community manager workload via reducing the astronomical amount of NPC alt trolls. Stay on topic.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#405 - 2014-05-26 17:46:00 UTC
SniffleBum KissyLips wrote:
Because surely noone would EVER create or join some joke corp just to continue trolling, right?


That might be a benefit as it gives the ISD/Community Managers a clear target. Kind of like herding cattle towards the slaughter house.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#406 - 2014-05-26 20:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Isn't this entire thread all about the meta though?


If you believe that it is so because he's a Goon, then yes.

I, on the other hand, believe that it is not impossible for him to be suggesting something for the benefit of the community as a whole in honesty.


Quote:

This is what we're really talking about, create a thread to encourage the view that every member of an npc corp is worth less than members of a player corp to the point that they should be denied the right to fully participate in the forums.

The goal being to make life uncomfortable for npc Corp members, because the op and his alliance want to force a change in the game that they hope they'll benefit from.


The goal being to remove one of the largest methods of trolling these forums, to help negate one of the major causes of fractured discussion on this discussion board.

No one is suggesting NPC corps can't give feedback. The OP's suggestion even allows them in F&I, which I personally would ban them from since this board is a troll swamp.


It's not the fact that he's a goon, I would question the motives of any person creating a thread like this one. Plus we often hear a lot on other threads about how NPC corps are evil etc and should be banned, usually alongside threads detailing how noobs should be forced into pvp straightaway and that highsec should be nerfed.

You cant blame me for being suspicious when you rightly point out that the meta is a large part of the game.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#407 - 2014-05-26 20:17:41 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

It's not the fact that he's a goon, I would question the motives of any person creating a thread like this one. Plus we often hear a lot on other threads about how NPC corps are evil etc and should be banned, usually alongside threads detailing how noobs should be forced into pvp straightaway and that highsec should be nerfed.

You cant blame me for being suspicious when you rightly point out that the meta is a large part of the game.


Ok.

But that has nothing to do whatsoever with what is actually going on. CAOD banned NPC corp posting. It used to be a complete garbage dump, now it's not.

Clearly, banning NPC corp posting has a positive effect on forum dialogue. That is indisputable.

The OP wants to extend this to more forums.

So what's the problem?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#408 - 2014-05-26 20:19:42 UTC
Thomas Harding wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Finally free speech trumps all other concerns.


Freedom of speech is not granted on privately owned medium. Better luck next time.


It's my birthright and a universal human right, regardless of medium, I have the absolute freedom to say anything I like even if breaks tos or eulas. What I don't always have is freedom from the consequences of that speech, should I cause grievous offence, this might result in posts being removed or even a forum ban, but i get to speak first before these things happen.

You are confusing freedom with a lack of consequences, they are not the same thing.


Nope. You forgot that there has to be party that's willing to receive your opinions. You have no absolute right to express your opinions anytime anywhere.




Yes you do...

If people are unwilling to recieve the said opinions then that's where the consequences come in. Like I say, you get to speak first (freedom of speech) and suffer the consequences later whether good or bad (sanctions, bans etc).

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#409 - 2014-05-26 20:28:48 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You definitely did not read the OP NPC corporations members still have access to F&I where they can "voice their opinion about their playstyle."

I'm not too interested in being told by some Goon where I should be allowed to voice my opinion. Maybe you should be restricted to posting on SomethingAwful?

La Nariz wrote:
Your goonspiracy is at least fresh for now.

I think you are awfully quick to attribute my opposition to so-called "Goon-spiracy theories". I wonder if you are so quick to accuse your fellow Goons who disagree with you of being "Goon-spiracists". I wonder how this kind of proposal for censorship would go down on the SomethingAwful forums.

La Nariz wrote:
astronomical amount of NPC alt trolls

Is it that there is an astronomical number of them? Probably not.
Is it that they are alts? For better or worse, alting is pretty well established as a "tactic" in this game.
Is it that they are trolls? Some people would consider YOU to be a troll. Goons are well known trolls. What would you propose we do about that?
Is that at all exacerbated by their being in NPC corps? I've been suicide ganked 4 times, and had at least 2 more attempts (none of which were even remotely profitable for the gankers). How exactly does being an NPC corp player impart any sort of immunity from consequence or make the problem worse? Isn't a throwaway alt a throwaway alt, NPC corp or no?
Marsha Mallow
#410 - 2014-05-26 21:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
It's not the fact that he's a goon, I would question the motives of any person creating a thread like this one. Plus we often hear a lot on other threads about how NPC corps are evil etc and should be banned, usually alongside threads detailing how noobs should be forced into pvp straightaway and that highsec should be nerfed.

You cant blame me for being suspicious when you rightly point out that the meta is a large part of the game.


Ok.

But that has nothing to do whatsoever with what is actually going on. CAOD banned NPC corp posting. It used to be a complete garbage dump, now it's not.

Clearly, banning NPC corp posting has a positive effect on forum dialogue. That is indisputable.

The OP wants to extend this to more forums.

So what's the problem?

Funnily enough, CCP have already placed a slight restriction on very new alts with the 300 second delay between posts on new characters. They know full well it's an issue.

BTW LDK, re what you mentioned earlier regarding posting. Everyone loses their temper from time to time. It doesn't count against the person, provided they aren't a complete rager who does it all the time (and has a slight sense of humour). Everyone gets annoyed, and tbh having to pretend to be excessively polite would encroach on our ability to communicate.

But the Eve-O forums are moderated lightly compared to the player based ones (where moderation is an issue, especially politically). I'm used to seeing badposters banned after a few weeks, not left to rage on and just their posts scrubbed. Actually that seems counter-productive because we can't see what they did. I think it's the wrong approach, and without wishing to criticise player volunteers, it's a sign of cheapness from CCP that they don't promote positive dialogue on their own forums. It's just easier to scrub, without really pointing out the errors/ballgagging. It's a pain in some ways, but I'd rather see MORE snips, just to learn where they define the edges.

Bear in mind Nariz is pushing for CAOD rules to be applied to the wider eve forums. I'm leaning towards the removal of NPC corps altogether, so people need to reconsider their counterarguments a bit more carefully, because his isn't the extreme position. He's in favour of creating barriers to effort for random throw-away alts, I'd lean towards their total removal. Neither of which are likely to happen. By all means make your own remarks, but if you any of you turn this into a grr gewn debate, you need to be reminded: we're not all Goons.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Marsha Mallow
#411 - 2014-05-26 21:09:10 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
I wonder if you are so quick to accuse your fellow Goons who disagree with you of being "Goon-spiracists". I wonder how this kind of proposal for censorship would go down on the SomethingAwful forums.

Goons have knifed me in the back and front everywhere in game.

I reply with

"GF"

Knock it off

SA and various other player run forums wouldn't just ban your account for being disruptive, they'd IP monitor and probably come and mess with you (if you were relevant). I don't see why that should be a bad thing in Eve.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Thomas Harding
Doomheim
#412 - 2014-05-26 21:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Harding
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Yes you do...

If people are unwilling to recieve the said opinions then that's where the consequences come in. Like I say, you get to speak first (freedom of speech) and suffer the consequences later whether good or bad (sanctions, bans etc).


Still nope. Try to get any newspaper to publish something they don't want to and you'll notice that there's no way you can force them. You can yell freedom of speech as long as you want, but it won't help.

Or you can't go to schools when (if ever) you want and start to preach any messsage. Religious or not.

Or I can throw you out of my home before you even had time to open your mouth and I didn't violate your right to express your opinions.

I'm sure you can think other examples too. And what's common in all the case is that they didn't want to receive your opinions and they didn't have to.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2014-05-26 21:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
La Nariz wrote:
afkalt wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
I too welcome our one member corp overlords.


No, no.

The universal forum alt corp™ would pop up.


Which would still be an improvement its generating content that otherwise would not happen.


never mind, someone else beat me to it.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#414 - 2014-05-26 23:08:33 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
SA and various other player run forums wouldn't just ban your account for being disruptive, they'd IP monitor and probably come and mess with you (if you were relevant).


I think I need you to clarify this statement. What significance does my IP address hold with regards to retaliating against me? Given that my IP address is out-of-game information, are you suggesting the retaliation would take place outside the bounds of EVE Online?

Thomas Harding wrote:
Try to get any newspaper to publish something they don't want to and you'll notice that there's no way you can force them.


How would they know they didn't want to publish what I'd sent them unless they had already "received" it? And, you would have the right to remove me from your property, but that wouldn't preclude my right to scream my opinion in your face while you were carrying me off or to stand out in front of your property and shout my opinion at anyone willing to listen. What is your point, exactly? That people can put their fingers in their ears and hum "la la la la la" like an elementary school child?
Marsha Mallow
#415 - 2014-05-26 23:56:18 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
SA and various other player run forums wouldn't just ban your account for being disruptive, they'd IP monitor and probably come and mess with you (if you were relevant).


I think I need you to clarify this statement. What significance does my IP address hold with regards to retaliating against me? Given that my IP address is out-of-game information, are you suggesting the retaliation would take place outside the bounds of EVE Online?

I'd reply at length but you just demonstrated the point of this suggestion with that pitifully transparent troll attempt.

Try harder.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#416 - 2014-05-27 00:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You definitely did not read the OP NPC corporations members still have access to F&I where they can "voice their opinion about their playstyle."

I'm not too interested in being told by some Goon where I should be allowed to voice my opinion. Maybe you should be restricted to posting on SomethingAwful?

La Nariz wrote:
Your goonspiracy is at least fresh for now.

I think you are awfully quick to attribute my opposition to so-called "Goon-spiracy theories". I wonder if you are so quick to accuse your fellow Goons who disagree with you of being "Goon-spiracists". I wonder how this kind of proposal for censorship would go down on the SomethingAwful forums.

La Nariz wrote:
astronomical amount of NPC alt trolls

Is it that there is an astronomical number of them? Probably not.
Is it that they are alts? For better or worse, alting is pretty well established as a "tactic" in this game.
Is it that they are trolls? Some people would consider YOU to be a troll. Goons are well known trolls. What would you propose we do about that?
Is that at all exacerbated by their being in NPC corps? I've been suicide ganked 4 times, and had at least 2 more attempts (none of which were even remotely profitable for the gankers). How exactly does being an NPC corp player impart any sort of immunity from consequence or make the problem worse? Isn't a throwaway alt a throwaway alt, NPC corp or no?


We disagree all the time you even have one in this thread disagreeing with me. People that do not read the OP get ridiculed and probated/banned on SA dot com, the same can be said for gf dot com. However notice how he actually attacks my argument instead of whining about big power trying to tyrannically silence dissent. Its already been established that we have the means to find out and silence whomever we want. That shouldn't be necessary and I've already provided examples why a more level playing field is better for us all. I'm going to leave it to you to find it in this thread because the :effort: I'm willing to spend on someone who cannot/refuses to read an OP is incredibly low.

Don't reply to me unless you are actually willing to read the entire OP its layout is good and its succinct you have no excuse for bad posting.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#417 - 2014-05-27 02:01:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Enacting this change would:

1.Increase the quality of the forums because NPC corporation posters are notoriously known for being devoted to being troll alts,

2.It is easily circumvented by players that wish to have a solo experience in EVE and wish to post via one 10+ man corporations,

3.It provides consequences/content for actions by exposing posters to retribution should their posts be deemed unpalatable by other players,

4.Potentially decrease ISD/Community Manager workloads,

5.Leave newbies unaffected as they can still post questions, ideas and look for corporations.

6.Leave the character trading system unaffected.

7.Decrease the amount of thread derailment and trolling.

8.Adds an incentive to joining a player made corporation.


Let me preamble this by saying that the stated consequences of the change you are advocating are your own speculation as to the what the effect will be. We couldn't really, fully know unless the change was enacted. But, let's presume you are right, just for the sake of argument:

1. Define "trolling" in a way that allows us to accurately measure the level of "troll" in various groups of players. If NPC corp players are more troll than other groups, you'll have a leg to stand on.

2. Why should anyone be forced to associate with 9 other people in order to voice their opinion about the game they pay to play?

3. How are NPC corporation posters NOT exposed to retribution? Anyone who undocks is subject to space violence, NPC corporation players included. What kind of exposure do you feel they are not subject to under the current mechanics?

4. No argument here. Restricting a large group of players from posting will decrease the workload of the ISDs, but if that is such a noble goal, why not just reduce the ISD's workload to zero by restricting EVERYONE from posting?

5. Preventing newbie players from speaking to other groups of players about EVE definitely affects them. Is shutting them out a good effect? I would say definitely not.

6. No contention here.

7. Again, you are a presupposing that NPC corporation posters troll at a higher rate and/or level than other groups, i.e. you are begging the question. What evidence do you have to prove NPC posters are worse than other groups? And, what about the NPC alts whose mains are members of large alliances? Do they count as NPC posters or large alliance bloc posters? If CCP started banning IPs and credit card credentials, do you think NPC corps or large alliances would be more affected?

8. Why should CCP incentivize players to join a player corporation? Isn't that effectively punishing NPC coporation players for having a different playstyle? Isn't it the job of player corporations and NOT CCP to incentivize NPC corp players to join them? Wouldn't it be just one more step in that direction for CCP to incentivize them to join PVP corps or exploration corps or mining corps and just one step beyond that for CCP to simply place new players into player run corporations automatically?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#418 - 2014-05-27 02:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

4. No argument here. Restricting a large group of players from posting will decrease the workload of the ISDs, but if that is such a noble goal, why not just reduce the ISD's workload to zero by restricting EVERYONE from posting?

5. Preventing newbie players from speaking to other groups of players about EVE definitely affects them. Is shutting them out a good effect? I would say definitely not.


As to the first of those two, I have long been an advocate of getting rid of the official forums.

As to the second, that's not true, and you know it. The avenues to do so are specifically being retained as available to new players.


Quote:

7. Again, you are a presupposing that NPC corporation posters troll at a higher rate and/or level than other groups, i.e. you are begging the question. What evidence do you have to prove NPC posters are worse than other groups? And, what about the NPC alts whose mains are members of large alliances? Do they count as NPC posters or large alliance bloc posters? If CCP started banning IPs and credit card credentials, do you think NPC corps or large alliances would be more affected?


Banning NPC corp posters from CAOD turned that forum around completely.

There's zero supposition there, it's a fact. The OP is suggesting that, given the proven benefits of this, that it be applied to more forums. I see nothing wrong with this, especially as the provision exists for anyone who wishes to be heard, to do so.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#419 - 2014-05-27 03:46:19 UTC
Rass Kass wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:



This.

... is a fallacious waste of words
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#420 - 2014-05-27 04:19:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Banning NPC corp posters from CAOD turned that forum around completely.

There's zero supposition there, it's a fact. The OP is suggesting that, given the proven benefits of this, that it be applied to more forums. I see nothing wrong with this, especially as the provision exists for anyone who wishes to be heard, to do so.

Actually that is massive supposition.
CAOD is a small sub forum dedicated to player corps and alliances. So most NPC alts being vocal in there would have been there for the sole purpose of being disruptive. The rest of the forums are NOT dedicated to player corps & alliances. So it is pure supposition to believe that banning NPC alts would have the same effect, since the environment is different.

Further I believe you would find a lot of people that consider Goon posts to be nearly always troll posts. If we start censorship because 'some NPC alts troll' why shouldn't we also ban the goons from posting, since 'some goons troll'.

If the argument is instead based on immunity to retribution, then obviously scam alts should be banned as well, since they never undock and just funnel the money to a main, sometimes laundering it to hide source depending on who is looking at their wallet api. So they are immune to retribution, far more than an NPC alt who actually un-docks is.

The basic short answer is no case has been made that isn't pure allegation & supposition that doesn't carry on into political censorship or discrimination.