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What happened to the stuff Incarna was supposed to bring?

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#281 - 2014-05-26 00:10:48 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2014-05-26 03:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Flamespar wrote:
I point out a feature that has had a lot of discussion in the community and even had a prototype created by CCP, and you say there are no gameplay ideas.

Here is CCP's last known answer to your enthusiastic (?) interest in the feature. You've been very consistent about referring to things that exist out in the ether of the forum somewhere, but maybe you can take the time and create a list of links of solid WiS feature discussion.

I'll tell you this: It's not clear to any of the detractors in this thread (including me) what the gameplay you envision is. If you could have infinite CCP development resources for WiS what would you have players do in it? Can you make a top 5 list? A top 10? I think I'm trying my best to understand your position.

Quote:
You're obviously just trolling (badly) at this point. You have my pity.

Let me buy you something from the NeX store, which is apparently getting more clothing items, which is interesting given claims that no-one wants more avatar content in EVE.

Will red heels suit?

This is good. Present an opposing view on a forum thread and I'm told to go wear some high heels. Just listen to yourself..

Edit: In case you don't read other threads, Sol made a thread about new clothing items in Kronos and I've shown my interest and enthusiasm for what's coming.

I think you're being simplistic by lumping WIS into character creator/avatar maker and CQ. These three elements are not the same right now, and some people who find the avatar creation interesting (like me) may not think that WIS has any value at all. It's a complex discussion, and you're not doing yourself any favors by glossing over these details.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#283 - 2014-05-26 08:35:34 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
I point out a feature that has had a lot of discussion in the community and even had a prototype created by CCP, and you say there are no gameplay ideas.

Here is CCP's last known answer to your enthusiastic (?) interest in the feature. You've been very consistent about referring to things that exist out in the ether of the forum somewhere, but maybe you can take the time and create a list of links of solid WiS feature discussion.

I'll tell you this: It's not clear to any of the detractors in this thread (including me) what the gameplay you envision is. If you could have infinite CCP development resources for WiS what would you have players do in it? Can you make a top 5 list? A top 10? I think I'm trying my best to understand your position.

Quote:
You're obviously just trolling (badly) at this point. You have my pity.

Let me buy you something from the NeX store, which is apparently getting more clothing items, which is interesting given claims that no-one wants more avatar content in EVE.

Will red heels suit?

This is good. Present an opposing view on a forum thread and I'm told to go wear some high heels. Just listen to yourself..

Edit: In case you don't read other threads, Sol made a thread about new clothing items in Kronos and I've shown my interest and enthusiasm for what's coming.

I think you're being simplistic by lumping WIS into character creator/avatar maker and CQ. These three elements are not the same right now, and some people who find the avatar creation interesting (like me) may not think that WIS has any value at all. It's a complex discussion, and you're not doing yourself any favors by glossing over these details.


There have been a rediculous amount of thread s about what players could "do" with their avatars. Don't be so fricken lazy. The forums have a search function. Use it.

I'll leave the shoes on the other side of your captains quarters door.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#284 - 2014-05-26 08:40:45 UTC
Flamespar wrote:


There have been a rediculous amount of thread s about what players could "do" with their avatars. Don't be so fricken lazy. The forums have a search function. Use it.

I'll leave the shoes on the other side of your captains quarters door.


Way to defend your position by ignoring the objection and attempting to change subject

Are your shoes velco or just painted on?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Reiisha
#285 - 2014-05-26 09:25:37 UTC
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.


Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#286 - 2014-05-26 09:28:38 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.


Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.


This
+1

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#287 - 2014-05-26 09:43:56 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Why do people keep propagating this lie?

Not people... only Rhes. Blink

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#288 - 2014-05-26 12:03:59 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.


Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.

Because it's not a lie, and the side pretending it is seem to hand-wave away dozens of issues and fixate on some fantasy that it was something other than an unmitigated disaster.

The inconvenient truth, is that WiS and the plan for micro-transactions were one and the same thing. No one thought that WiS was going to lead to a surge of subscribers and pay for its years of development. it was designed to be it's own revenue source. The reason 'greed is good' and the $1000 jeans blog caused so much issue, is because they revealed the future plans for WiS to be micro-transactions, not gameplay.

WiS as it was designed, died in a permanent way when the community rejected micro-transactions, because they rejected the revenue source. You can see just how hard CCP were banking on this, by the fact they later fired 20% of their staff. And, this year, finally put the WiS/CARBON avatar development on permanent hold with the cancelling of WoD.

I suspect in time, Legion and EvE will get closer, and we will probably see some FPS action in stations, but the original Incarna plans will never see development.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#289 - 2014-05-26 12:06:25 UTC
Which explains why the NeX store was closed and no more items were added to it...


Oh wait.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#290 - 2014-05-26 12:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Reiisha wrote:
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.


Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.


Yes and no. Incarna or the state of WiS was the final straw that lead to much of the backlash. After hearing about "Greed is Good", plus the deplorable state of Eve in regards to lackluster content releases, not existent fixes, and ignoring balancing, coupled with the terrible release of Incarna set people off. It was the perfect storm of crap and people realized that a massive amount of time and resources were being diverted away from Eve, in CCPs willingness to try and milk Eve players and move away from them. And the horribly optimized, one room, and over pixilated WiS didn't help in that regard.

Was the "Summer of Rage" all about WIS, no, but it did play a part.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Marsha Mallow
#291 - 2014-05-26 12:32:42 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.

Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.

It's not a lie, it's just a different perspective to yours. Some of us rioted when we were told no FiS development for 18 months, some over monoclegate, some over Greed is Good (P2W). What we see in these threads is people suggesting things weren't all that bad - it was a load of fuss over nothing really - and WiS development is a casualty of mass hysteria. Sorry, but CCP clearly didn't think so at the time and attempts to prove it fail.

For a change CCP are doing exactly what we asked them and focusing on fixing all the broken mechanics of the core game. It was obvious avatar development would have dragged on well beyond 18 months, and for nullsec players in particular, that would have been a game breaker. Whether CCP are acting on behalf of the majority of the playerbase or the most vocal is irrelevant, it's in progress and threads like this won't stop it. More to the point, it's within our interests to ensure a minority of people complaining (who don't seem able to produce a rational justification for an immediate refocus on avatar development) don't railroad the current development path.

I've not seen anyone seriously opposed to avatar development on a permenant basis. For those of you who put this above everything else, you are welcome to continue campaigning. Just remember we are allowed to counter-campaign, and frankly, we're a lot better at it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#292 - 2014-05-26 12:52:34 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
it's within our interests to ensure a minority of people complaining don't railroad the current development path.


I agree.

What we need is some sort of solution to this problem.

Finally.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Flamespar
WarRavens
#293 - 2014-05-26 13:08:56 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
it's within our interests to ensure a minority of people complaining don't railroad the current development path.


I agree.

What we need is some sort of solution to this problem.

Finally.



I think people forget that CCP can deliver content that satisfies multiple user groups.

If player numbers alone were used to justify a feature, then stuff like null sec sovereignty will never get looked at. POS's would never get updated, Booster manufacturer would never get looked at. The majority of players play in high sec.

The real question is whether they can create features that can be enjoyed by multiple groups.

Personally I think a modular POS system is an example of a feature that could be designed so that everyone can enjoy it.
Null bears can build their Death Stars
Solo players can build a POS with interiors as they see fit.

Players could use the feature in the manner they want without being forced to use it in a particular way.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#294 - 2014-05-26 13:15:52 UTC
Flamespar wrote:


If player numbers alone were used to justify a feature, then stuff like null sec sovereignty will never get looked at. POS's would never get updated, Booster manufacturer would never get looked at. The majority of players play in high sec.


Incorrect.

The majority of players play in multiple secs. This has been proved over and over, so the "High vs Null" argument is complete rubbish.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Flamespar
WarRavens
#295 - 2014-05-26 13:27:51 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Flamespar wrote:


If player numbers alone were used to justify a feature, then stuff like null sec sovereignty will never get looked at. POS's would never get updated, Booster manufacturer would never get looked at. The majority of players play in high sec.


Incorrect.

The majority of players play in multiple secs. This has been proved over and over, so the "High vs Null" argument is complete rubbish.


Go read the past couple CSM minutes.

Whilst you're there, take note of the amount of players who play with the CQ active.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#296 - 2014-05-26 13:42:32 UTC
Flamespar wrote:

Go read the past couple CSM minutes.

Whilst you're there, take note of the amount of players who play with the CQ active.


I fail to see what relevance you are attempting to drive at here

Perhaps if you could cite the parts that support your position, then I could consider them

thx

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#297 - 2014-05-26 15:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Which explains why the NeX store was closed and no more items were added to it...


Oh wait.

So because WiS is currently in the game, it has been the focus of development? Or do you want to repeal this silly logic?
Flamespar wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Flamespar wrote:


If player numbers alone were used to justify a feature, then stuff like null sec sovereignty will never get looked at. POS's would never get updated, Booster manufacturer would never get looked at. The majority of players play in high sec.


Incorrect.

The majority of players play in multiple secs. This has been proved over and over, so the "High vs Null" argument is complete rubbish.


Go read the past couple CSM minutes.

Whilst you're there, take note of the amount of players who play with the CQ active.

Server metrics are always misleading, because they don't correct adequately for alts, or for people who move around but spend more time in highsec statistically.

e.g. a lowsec pirate or FW pilot might:
- have scouts in highsec watching traffic
- have a jita alt
- have a neutral hauler moving stuff from jita
- leave lowsec for hours a month to fix his sec status

By server metrics, that guy is about 10% lowsec, but he will consider himself a highsec resident. Highsec will always be over-represented because permanent residents aside, most people go there continuously as it's convenient.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Reiisha
#298 - 2014-05-26 18:21:12 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Rhes wrote:
WiS almost killed the game so CCP wisely backed off and refocused on real Eve content.


Why do people keep propagating this lie?

The main reason for the 2011 riots was the Greed is Good memo. An added reason was the lack of (significant) content in Incarna, not WiS itself - An important distinction many people seem to ignore.

WiS is still coming down the road, this time with proper content that ties into the rest of the game. Whether it's going to be right now or in 5 or 10 years, only CCP knows atm.

Because it's not a lie, and the side pretending it is seem to hand-wave away dozens of issues and fixate on some fantasy that it was something other than an unmitigated disaster.

The inconvenient truth, is that WiS and the plan for micro-transactions were one and the same thing. No one thought that WiS was going to lead to a surge of subscribers and pay for its years of development. it was designed to be it's own revenue source. The reason 'greed is good' and the $1000 jeans blog caused so much issue, is because they revealed the future plans for WiS to be micro-transactions, not gameplay.

WiS as it was designed, died in a permanent way when the community rejected micro-transactions, because they rejected the revenue source. You can see just how hard CCP were banking on this, by the fact they later fired 20% of their staff. And, this year, finally put the WiS/CARBON avatar development on permanent hold with the cancelling of WoD.

I suspect in time, Legion and EvE will get closer, and we will probably see some FPS action in stations, but the original Incarna plans will never see development.


So because WiS lends itself to microtransactions very well, it means it's ONLY about microtransactions?

The core reason for the 2011 riots was not WiS, not even microtransactions themselves - It was the mention of selling golden ammo, better ships or mods through the NeX store. THAT caused the riots. Literally no one had a problem with there being microtransactions for Incarna.

Microtransactions were an afterthought to WiS. 2008's demos proved that handily imho. That said, i'd be willing to bet on there being a proper Incarna within the next 10 years - It's just a matter of time. There is still an untapped potential in EVE and avatars are right up there, right alongside Dust/Legion and Valkyrie, amongst other things. I fully expect a ground RTS style game to be developed at some point as well, if not directly implemented into the current EVE client to complement PI, amongst other things.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Jade Blackwind
#299 - 2014-05-26 18:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Aver Bheskagor wrote:
What happened to all of that stuff?
CCP wrote:
During the year the company assessed its capitalized development assets and determined that a portion of those assets would likely not have future economic benefits. IAS 38 requires that such assets should be derecognized and removed from the balance sheet. The expense related to the derecognized assets are presented as part of research and development expense in the statement of comprehensive income.
Basically, this happened.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#300 - 2014-05-26 18:40:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Reiisha wrote:
So because WiS lends itself to microtransactions very well, it means it's ONLY about microtransactions?
It was its only purpose as initially released, and they never presented anything beyond that. The original 2008 WiS was presented with some very vague ideas attached to it, but was abandoned; the 2011 WiS that replaced it only had MT.

Quote:
The core reason for the 2011 riots was
…a perfect storm of:
• 18 months without any FiS changes, and more to come.
• WiS implementation (it was just a limited tech demo for a cumbersome UI, not any actual WiS)
• WiS lack of purpose (its only use was for MT)
• WiS performance (it was a tech demo that didn't work well)
• WiS integration (it was completely at odds with the established EVE lore)
• Feature removal
• P2W
• MT being implemented at all
• MT being hilariously incompetently implemented
• Third-party developer leeching.
• A complete lack of dev communication
• A massive amount of dev arrogance, both internally and outwardly.
• Wilful ignorance of testing feedback and bug reports
• A game-breaking (and hardware-breaking) release as a result of the above.

Trying to pin it on any one thing only means only one thing: you're being thoroughly disingenuous and incorrectly trying to deflect the massive problems your pet feature had. You could condense it into one thing, which could probably be described as “CCP being on a power trip and ignoring its customer base”, but that's a bit too general to really say anything.