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Crashing The New Eden Economy

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#81 - 2014-05-24 14:24:23 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
The problem is the sandbox ideology, artificial market manipulation and CCP's profit motive have a potential to all crash into each other.
How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction.

Quote:
I am known for my integrity and my Rorschach-esk abolitionism when it comes to truth. My views on this may be so far divorced from any practical reality but that isn't relevant.
No, and no. Your views are commonly far divorced from any reality, which is what makes them pretty much irrelevant.
Xenuria
#82 - 2014-05-24 19:20:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
The problem is the sandbox ideology, artificial market manipulation and CCP's profit motive have a potential to all crash into each other.
How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction.

Quote:
I am known for my integrity and my Rorschach-esk abolitionism when it comes to truth. My views on this may be so far divorced from any practical reality but that isn't relevant.
No, and no. Your views are commonly far divorced from any reality, which is what makes them pretty much irrelevant.


Careful Tippia, if you project any more Samsung might show up at your door to buy you out.

CSM 12 Candidate
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#83 - 2014-05-24 19:39:02 UTC
The disparity in levels of intelligence here are vast orders of magnitude.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2014-05-24 19:40:49 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Careful Tippia, if you project any more Samsung might show up at your door to buy you out.

I notice that you were unable to answer the question. That doesn't speak very well for the proclaimed integrity or relevance…
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#85 - 2014-05-24 20:00:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction.


As the only person here more batshit insane than either of you, I'll take this one.

As you point out 'pretty much'. I hate to use a slippery slope argument, but basically that's the case here. EvE is marketed as a game different from others in that the company is not calling the tune, the players are. Plex is different than any other market good because it has a real world value.

So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets?

See, this is where the sandbox and CCPs income diverge. All they have to do is find balance point where it's high enough to pad their income, but not so high as to drive off players, and then keep it there.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2014-05-24 20:17:40 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets?
Self-interest. Doing so means less cash. Historical data has rather debunked the idea that higher prices equates more purchases (if anything, speculation has increased so the actual ETC/PLEX sales would be going down).

This is entirely consistent with the notion that, the higher the price, the fewer the number of accounts people will keep active. They're not going to start paying their own cash for them — that would defeat the purpose of having a “free” account. It's also highly debatable that CCP wants more people to use subscriptions than PLEX — why would they want people to pay less for the same service? At most, PLEX creates headaches for the accountants, but they are accountants and therefore not particularly relevant. P
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-05-24 20:20:15 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets?

See, this is where the sandbox and CCPs income diverge. All they have to do is find balance point where it's high enough to pad their income, but not so high as to drive off players, and then keep it there.


Um, No

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9V2P5El0E time stamp 29:39

They fixed the stability, not the price. Dr Eyjo said they do NOT have a specific target for plex prices

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2014-05-24 20:31:09 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Um, No

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9V2P5El0E time stamp 29:39

They fixed the stability, not the price. Dr Eyjo said they do NOT have a specific target for plex prices

^^ This too. The argument that CCP somehow breaks the sandbox rather trips over the simple fact that the players are still setting the price. All CCP have ever done is try to calm down a price development.

As others have pointed out, if an argument is to be made about CCP's “manipulating” the market, it needs to start with when they actually do that, viz. with any alteration of building requirements or base material supplies.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#89 - 2014-05-24 20:32:48 UTC
Great thread, would read again. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#90 - 2014-05-24 21:01:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:

^^ This too. The argument that CCP somehow breaks the sandbox rather trips over the simple fact that the players are still setting the price. All CCP have ever done is try to calm down a price development.


Mike Azariah wrote:

They fixed the stability, not the price. Dr Eyjo said they do NOT have a specific target for plex prices


Achem, let me just point something out: to 'stabilize' the market in the manner he's describing, you have to pick a price (probably an average of the previous prices before the market began to fluctuate) and use that as a basis of your attempt to stabilize the market So, NO, the players were not setting the price, players trying to set the price was what was driving the fluctuations that they were trying to correct. CCP manipulating the prices was what, in this case, stabilized it.

While they may not have had a target number going into this, they most certainly did within a very short time span, otherwise the market would have continued to fluctuate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2014-05-24 21:06:42 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Achem, let me just point something out: to 'stabilize' the market in the manner he's describing, you have to pick a price (probably an average of the previous prices before the market began to fluctuate) and use that as a basis of your attempt to stabilize the market
…or, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#92 - 2014-05-24 21:25:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[…or, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough.


In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'.
Carribean Queen
Vadimus Quarrier Works
#93 - 2014-05-24 21:25:56 UTC
I see they really do let the mental patients have a weekend pass from the institution.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-05-24 21:26:14 UTC
I'm kind-of surprised at how the plex market works and how/why the prices are so high. I bought 6 last night (first time I've ever bought plex) and put them up as sell orders. It only took a few minutes for them to be completely swamped by other sell orders, 0.01isk down. In the hour or so I was watching them I didn't change my order price but I did watch buy/sell. I saw quite a few added as sell but I didn't see any bought. Mine slowly dropped off the bottom of the screen.

From my knowledge of Eve markets it's quite unusual for something with an obviously healthy supply to have risen in price so much. So yea, it's artificial, not demand/supply based.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2014-05-24 21:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'.

No, for the simple reason that the price is not fixed. The players were still dictating the price.

Victoria Sin wrote:
From my knowledge of Eve markets it's quite unusual for something with an obviously healthy supply to have risen in price so much. So yea, it's artificial, not demand/supply based.
Yup. If you watch the fanfest presentation linked earlier, you'll see that it's almost entirely speculation — every PLEX put in is resold at least once before it is activated, and lots are being stockpiled. If anything, the volumes would suggest that demand is down slightly (which would also be the expected effect of end-ursers finding themselves priced out of the market) and only inflated by the speculation bubble.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-05-24 21:32:36 UTC
The police do not give you a speeding ticket for being a set distance from an arbitrary point, they do depending on the RATE which you move. It is the change that is the difference, not the instantaneous position.

In the same regard the price of the plex was not the concern but the RATE at which it was changing. That was when he used his tools to adjust our speeding. NOt the price but the rate at which the price was changing.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-05-24 22:12:58 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[…or, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough.


In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'.


If there were an actual fixed price target, plex prices would have stopped rising years ago. Instead they continue to do so.

"Stabilize" in this context means "control rate of rise." Which, is exactly what Mike posted as well Oops

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Marsha Mallow
#98 - 2014-05-24 22:19:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
At most, PLEX creates headaches for the accountants, but they are accountants and therefore not particularly relevant. P

Enough with the sly digs! It's Auditors everyone hates, not the lovely beancounters.

Mike Azariah wrote:

A dev messed with our economy? Oh lordy, say it aint so. I shall right this wrong and have the scoundrel removed from the company in the same manner that I had Ripard removed for abuse of CSM's awesome power.

Please roleplay in your own forum Arrow

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-05-24 22:24:53 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Tell me more about how I was creeping on you this fanfest, despite me not even being in Iceland.
I don't need to bolster my name for CSM next year. So long as people like you keep seeing my face in their morning slice of bread, I will have all the advertising I could ever need.

Stay Classy~

It's not like you've ever had a lack of people talking about you.
The reason you keep losing the election is not that nobody knows who you are, it's that nobody wants you elected.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#100 - 2014-05-25 00:06:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Look.

CCP has embraced Ayn Rand's warped view of a utopia created by people making decisions based on "enlightened self-interest".

In the real world, we have seen how well that works with object lessons like Somalia, Ethiopia, and to some extent Russia. The u.s is heading as fast as it can down that path with their "libertarianism = freedom" insanity.

CCP has decided if someone can corner the market on plexes, which requires something in the high hundreds of billions / low trillions, that is perfectly acceptable, even celebrated, within the Eve universe. We have dozens of acolytes of Ayn Rand rushing to defend this Eve culture as one that is "good for the game", every day on the forum, especially the ones ruthless enough to use the constructs provided by CCP to achieve a dominant position within the game.

But bottom line, the vast majority of humans, no matter how morally flawed we are as a species, recognizes that this kind of behavior should be abhorred, not celebrated. That is why Eve subs are stagnant, even falling (which CCP refuses to acknowledge as they won't release full CSM voting data). CCP has captured the full market of sick individuals that think crushing all others makes for great fun. There is not a lot of movement left in that that market segment. But on the other hand, there is large downside on driving people from the game, the ones that like to play a co-operative, or at the very least., a benign game.

As CCP continues down the path that the null sec cartels have laid out for them, CCP will learn that advertising "be the villain " might not be the best marketing strategy, sort of like New Coke was not that great.


Every once in a while a poster will give you a glimpse of their real world beliefs and suddenly their in game insanity makes all kinds of sense. I'm not one who believes 100% that how a person acts in game is how they act out of game, but for some people it's true.

The bolded part is an example. You display the false consensus crap in game all the time on these forums (when you pretend to be the appointed speaker of the high sec majority, which is somehow the majority AND the oppressed all at the same time).

And it seems you do it out of game too. Is it really so hard to understand that you are merely an individual like the rest of us and can speak for none other than yourself (unless you have the express consent of others to speak for them, like having been elected to something lol)? Is it really that hard to jsut say "I don't like things about CCP and EVE Online" rather than "the majority of us are victimised by CCP and we'll show them!" lol.

The underlined bit proves what I already know. It's not EVE that is the problem, it's you.

EVE was conceived as a competitive game. It allows 'benign co-operation' but demands competition. Yet you still chose to play it, despite the fact that you knew of should have known that you don't like competitive (dare i say "capitalistic") gameplay. Ironically it's your choosing to play it that has helped prop it up for so long. If you 'I hate EVE, capitalism, Ayn Rand and Freedom but maybe one day CCP will sell it to some socialist or anarchist developers and i'll like it' crowd would stop giving CCP money , what you want to happen may have happened a long time ago lol.




So he's Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson?