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Why no capacitor readout?
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-05-23 22:02:30 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to supply less info to players in combat, many of which I would support if push came to shove.

However, to request a cap readout on a target THAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY PERFORMING CAP WARFARE ON is not a totally unreasonable request. The same could be said for those that you are currently cap boosting as well.

Thank you for typing in large letters to help my eyes. Fortunately they work just fine, so spamming caps lock is not necessary.

A low performance hit way of doing his would be to have the targets current cap print in the log whenever activating a neut or nos on that target.

It's called emphasis on the key point, which you have apparently missed anyway.

I also was not addressing the remark to you, but thank you for assuming I give a damn who you are or what your opinion is (mistaken though you may be in that regard). Smile


Just because I didn't specifically comment on your point doesn't mean I missed it. In fact my suggestion about outputting that data to notifications/logs instead of having a real time readout was specifically based on your comment. Is this the part where I pretend to be offended by you? [shocked]You heartless fiend![/shocked]

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Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-05-23 23:39:54 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Think of it this way. In a 1000 person fight, if 1 person is shot by 1 other person, that information is relayed 1000 times. If 1000 ships move, the new positions are relayed 1000 times each for 1 million calls. Velocity, angular velocity, and transversal velocity can all be calculated client side from the old and new positions. This means that in combat, module activations, absolute position, absolute position of drones, effects of drones (damage/ewar), and damage taken for targeted ships are the only things (that I can think of) that have to be relayed to participants.

if we assume weapons are grouped, for combat ships, there will usually be 1 weapon activation every 3+ seconds, and longer on prop mod, scrams, webs and other modules. My estimate is 1-2 module activations per second per ship on average. Add in 5 fields updated for drone positions, and some amount of damage taken, and we're looking at 20 or so data points per ship being broadcast, capacitor would be another point that would have to be updated every server tick, so it probably represents a 2-3% increase in server load (I'm assuming my 20 data points estimate is lower than reality). This would be significantly more manageable if only visible on locked targets, but its still another value that has to be updated every server tick.


Notice that when you target someone your client assumes they are at 100%, and it takes approximately 1 second (server tick) for the readout to update with their actual status. It would be extremely foolish and unscalable to relay all damage dealt to all clients. Chances are high your client only cares about "notDead = 1" and "position = x,y,z" which is much cheaper to send, until the ship is targeted, at which point there server will relay pertinent information like shield, armor, hull, isEcmJammed, isScrambled, etc.

Intelligent design of the code to minimize server interactions where possible is extremely important in large fights like the example provided.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-05-23 23:44:58 UTC
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Notice that when you target someone your client assumes they are at 100%, and it takes approximately 1 second (server tick) for the readout to update with their actual status.

Yup, great example of how client-server interaction works.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#24 - 2014-05-24 01:21:10 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to supply less info to players in combat, many of which I would support if push came to shove.

However, to request a cap readout on a target THAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY PERFORMING CAP WARFARE ON is not a totally unreasonable request. The same could be said for those that you are currently cap boosting as well.

Thank you for typing in large letters to help my eyes. Fortunately they work just fine, so spamming caps lock is not necessary.

A low performance hit way of doing his would be to have the targets current cap print in the log whenever activating a neut or nos on that target.

It's called emphasis on the key point, which you have apparently missed anyway.

I also was not addressing the remark to you, but thank you for assuming I give a damn who you are or what your opinion is (mistaken though you may be in that regard). Smile


Just because I didn't specifically comment on your point doesn't mean I missed it. In fact my suggestion about outputting that data to notifications/logs instead of having a real time readout was specifically based on your comment. Is this the part where I pretend to be offended by you? [shocked]You heartless fiend![/shocked]

No, this is the part where you stop being the snippy little net etiquette policeman that everyone rolls their collective eyes at. Blink

On a more relevant point, updating your log to show your targets cap level doesn't really perform a useful function. The only point to seriously exploring the practicality and desirability of knowing what your targets cap level is would be if those engaged in cap warfare or cap logistics efforts had a need for it in real time.

I can see the value when neuting someone especially, as you are burning your own cap in the process and that would allow you to more precisely judge when you could shut the module off... also logistics pilots could be a lot more efficient when cap boosting multiple allies.

However, even if a limited form of live update was done on your opponents cap level, there is also a game design perspective to consider... that being you don't necessarily want all information to be readily available to the players.

Personally, even though I tend to use cap warfare regularly I find myself favoring a bit of uncertainty where it is concerned. But I have to admit (assuming it could be done without adverse affects to the server) that my point of view would likely be unpopular.

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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#25 - 2014-05-24 01:49:19 UTC
And here I thought the OP was gonna ask for something sensible, like maybe a way to show a percentage readout for there own cap instead of the cap dial. Nope, couldn't be that sensible.

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"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Doreen Kaundur
#26 - 2014-05-24 05:22:17 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Doreen Kaundur wrote:
Someday a mod will be used to read cap levels on a ship. If you can scan cargo, you can scan cap energy levels.

Just give it time.

Not sure if you're trying to troll, but:

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Yeah, you can cargo scan to take snapshots

...it's already a feature of cargo scanners.

I was wondering if it were possible and/or desirable to have real-time info on all active targets, without a mod.


Since server load is an issue as decribed above, it will most like be mod only to cut down on the load.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-24 07:05:36 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
And here I thought the OP was gonna ask for something sensible, like maybe a way to show a percentage readout for there own cap instead of the cap dial. Nope, couldn't be that sensible.

That would've been a very boring thread indeed! Also because there already is a way (hint: mouseover).

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Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#28 - 2014-05-24 09:09:22 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In combat, we have instant info on everybody's position, speed, relative speed, etc.

We also have instant info on EWAR and cap warfare effects applied to us and who is applying them.

If you have the time to look and are familiar with the animations, you have instant info on self-buffs and remotely applied buffs/debuffs and who is applying them to whom. Including who is shooting whom.

If you target somebody, you have instant info on his shield/armor/hull hp.

Etc, etc, lots of useful combat info that the quick & savvy PVPer can have fun with.


Only 'hidden' info is enemy (and friendly) capacitor. Yeah, you can cargo scan to take snapshots and it's fairly evident when someone is completely out of cap. Twisted

But still, why no real-time readout on targeted ships' capacitor (both friendly and enemy)?


While your at it, demand instant info on what each pilot is wearing during the fight, their relative location to you in the world, their favorite color and their marital status.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-24 09:29:18 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
While your at it, demand instant info on what each pilot is wearing during the fight, their relative location to you in the world, their favorite color and their marital status.

I guess you're not aware that 'show pilot info' already reveals your toon's skimpy top and low-rise trowsers, if you're atk I can roughly guess your longitude and every PVPers favorite color is either yellow, orange or red. Marital status is irrelevant, it's a game not a dating site.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#30 - 2014-05-24 10:57:18 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
While your at it, demand instant info on what each pilot is wearing during the fight, their relative location to you in the world, their favorite color and their marital status.

I guess you're not aware that 'show pilot info' already reveals your toon's skimpy top and low-rise trowsers, if you're atk I can roughly guess your longitude and every PVPers favorite color is either yellow, orange or red. Marital status is irrelevant, it's a game not a dating site.


Sarcasm is lost on you I see.

Don't worry. I forgive you because your alt (at least the one you posted with) is not even a year old.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-24 11:03:29 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Sarcasm is lost on you I see.

Are you sure? Unironically sure?

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Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-05-24 11:35:18 UTC
Maybe I'm just using common sense here, but I'm pretty sure that a simple readout would already be available in this game after 11 years if there wasn't a good reason for it.

Not only it creates exponential server load, but the result would add very little of value to the game. It's very obvious already if someone is going to get capped out or not already with some minimal ship and fit knowledge, and for bigger situations (i.e monitoring cap for dreads and above) you already have ship scanners for it.


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