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Autocannons have the worst projection now.
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Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#21 - 2014-05-22 13:11:29 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg

Here is the current situation. This is all SR guns with t2 long range ammo. Scorch is king and that's quite expected. Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).

I've stopped using barrage outside falloff bonused ships. Even on falloff bonused ships it is meh. Note that to project damage with barrage you are losing the damage selectivity which is one of the "perks" that comes with using AC's

Also Vaga is no longer the pvp king it was. I've converted mine to a PvE ship and it is gathering dust at someplace.

We have to adapt and accept the AC's as a brawl range weapon with no cap usage and selectable dmg type. For actual kite range damage projection, we have missile ships now.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-05-22 13:19:43 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).


Projectile weapons have nothing to do with projection - their name simply implies the use of actual physical slugs (projectiles) - as opposed to energy weapons, which have no physical slug.

Imo atm the AC damage might be a bit too low across the board, but not in any particular field. Parud above came the closest - TE nerf hit them hard - some would say a bit too hard.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-05-22 13:41:57 UTC
Deerin wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg

Here is the current situation. This is all SR guns with t2 long range ammo. Scorch is king and that's quite expected. Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).

I've stopped using barrage outside falloff bonused ships. Even on falloff bonused ships it is meh. Note that to project damage with barrage you are losing the damage selectivity which is one of the "perks" that comes with using AC's

Also Vaga is no longer the pvp king it was. I've converted mine to a PvE ship and it is gathering dust at someplace.

We have to adapt and accept the AC's as a brawl range weapon with no cap usage and selectable dmg type. For actual kite range damage projection, we have missile ships now.



Add a HML ship to your chart, you'll be horrified.
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-05-22 16:59:18 UTC
Medium autocannons are not in a good place right now.

Autos are supposed to be king of falloff and kiting. Problem is, autos can't project damage worth **** and even at 0km auto damage is in and of itself ****.

Falloff: The Stabber get's 10% falloff per level. Fitting 220s and using RF/EMP/Fusion/PP, it still takes three TEs (out of four low slots) to get range to 1.71km + 25.9km, just past point range. And even then, you're in deep falloff and damage is terrible. You can use Barrage, but then you're locked into a specific damage type (and isn't that the main point people bring up to say autos are balanced?) and barrage has terrible damage to begin with.

Damage: The Rupture is double damage bonused (5% to both damage and RoF per level). Fitting 425s, using Hail (for giggles) and fitting three gyros, it's gun dps is at a rather meager 443. And this is supposed to be a brawler.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I'm not saying Minmatar are terrible, they are exclusively the only race I fly, and even the two boats above can win and do cool things if you fit really creatively and fly well, but there's really no denying medium autos are the bottom of the bucket at the moment.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#25 - 2014-05-22 17:05:00 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Deerin wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg

Add a HML ship to your chart, you'll be horrified.


Yea I'm horrified that you are suggesting comparing LR weapon platform with SR weapon platform.

The thing is: Heavy Missiles raw damage potential using Fury is quite high. Applying it to moving cruiser size targets, is another story though.

HAM's are better, but still need someone/something to web/paint the enemy.

Anyway Projectile weapon Projecting was a small joke, which got lost in translation I assume. I made my peace with ac's. Only using them for brawling purposes. Would love to have more falloff....but you can't hae everything
korrey
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-05-22 19:39:13 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
Medium autocannons are not in a good place right now.

Autos are supposed to be king of falloff and kiting. Problem is, autos can't project damage worth **** and even at 0km auto damage is in and of itself ****.

Falloff: The Stabber get's 10% falloff per level. Fitting 220s and using RF/EMP/Fusion/PP, it still takes three TEs (out of four low slots) to get range to 1.71km + 25.9km, just past point range. And even then, you're in deep falloff and damage is terrible. You can use Barrage, but then you're locked into a specific damage type (and isn't that the main point people bring up to say autos are balanced?) and barrage has terrible damage to begin with.

Damage: The Rupture is double damage bonused (5% to both damage and RoF per level). Fitting 425s, using Hail (for giggles) and fitting three gyros, it's gun dps is at a rather meager 443. And this is supposed to be a brawler.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I'm not saying Minmatar are terrible, they are exclusively the only race I fly, and even the two boats above can win and do cool things if you fit really creatively and fly well, but there's really no denying medium autos are the bottom of the bucket at the moment.



What should the damage of a Rupture with 425's be then? 550? 600? The Omen with Heavy Pulses and Conflag will post about 480-500dps. Of course you'll cap out faster than you can say "Pax Amarria".

Not saying AC's don't need to be looked at, just wanted to clarify that 400-500 DPS is what most T1 Attack cruisers put out, not counting blaster boats (Moa, Thorax). Maller puts out 350 DPS with a sizeable tank, and it's a brawler. It puts out ~400 DPS with a similar tank to a Rupture, slightly higher due to resists. But again, thats with Conflag which is not efficient in 4 out of 5 situations.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-05-22 20:21:30 UTC
ok i made me a damage graph, and i think the ac are in a good place for their versatility and caplessness.

name says tank and guns, all fitted with t2 lr ammo
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#28 - 2014-05-22 20:29:47 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.


Yep known fact. Even though minny ships are touted as being the quintessential kiting ships, they have in fact only 1 maybe 2 ships that can actually engage past 20+K.

Pretty sad. I spoke with Fozzie and Rise about this at fanfest 2014, however they told me at the round table that they think autos are in a fine place, and are not going to be subject to any new changes.


Perhaps that's because AC's benefit from capless usage, damage selection, and are generally utilized on the fastest hulls.

I think some tweaks to AC's aren't unreasonable, but I think they aren't in some unusable state.
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-05-22 20:38:51 UTC
korrey wrote:



What should the damage of a Rupture with 425's be then? 550? 600? The Omen with Heavy Pulses and Conflag will post about 480-500dps. Of course you'll cap out faster than you can say "Pax Amarria".

Not saying AC's don't need to be looked at, just wanted to clarify that 400-500 DPS is what most T1 Attack cruisers put out, not counting blaster boats (Moa, Thorax). Maller puts out 350 DPS with a sizeable tank, and it's a brawler. It puts out ~400 DPS with a similar tank to a Rupture, slightly higher due to resists. But again, thats with Conflag which is not efficient in 4 out of 5 situations.


You're right. Let me take a step back and say I don't actually think the dps a Rupture can achieve is that bad, and it is on par with laser boats. My real issue is with the huge gap between this level of dps, and the level of dps that almost anything with blasters brings to the table. And in the current meta, where everyone and their mother flies a blaster boat, you can't just not count them when discussing medium weapons platforms.

Also, the dps on that Rupture is not a figure that you could really attain and still maintain an effective brawling fit. You'd have to downgrade to 220s and one or two gyros in order to fit a passable tank, which would lower the dps to 320-370 (again with Hail, which is about as impractical as Conflag is).
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-05-23 00:45:38 UTC
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

I'm also not sure why people are so fixated on keeping their autocannon ships outside of long point range. You absolutely can't afford to get scrammed or webbed, sure, so I probably wouldn't want to get much closer than 20km, but the whole point of the speed most AC ships bring to the table is that they can just walk away from a fight if they don't like the way it's going.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-05-23 12:38:25 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.


its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?



I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day

and so can throaxes and
so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns...
That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.

Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.


Stop lying.



he is NOT lying. Nomens can do that. As long as they keep their repairer off. I know< i use one and never had issues with that.

The advantage of AC is when you are fighting a curse or ashimmu... but that is not exactly so common.

The selectable damage types sometimes is a gamble.. sometimes pays off soemtiems fails completely.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-05-23 12:39:40 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

I'm also not sure why people are so fixated on keeping their autocannon ships outside of long point range. You absolutely can't afford to get scrammed or webbed, sure, so I probably wouldn't want to get much closer than 20km, but the whole point of the speed most AC ships bring to the table is that they can just walk away from a fight if they don't like the way it's going.



Peopel dont want to leave them outside logn point range. They want to stay far away as possible to do more damage than the blaster ship does with null at that range. Unfortunately that happens almost at tackle limit.

THe increase of null range made the AC projection advantage a niche thing.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#33 - 2014-05-23 14:32:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Medium ACs are pretty much the worst weapon system in the game now, relegating falloff bonused Minmatar hulls to being, well, **** frankly.


I see someone hasn't fired a heavy missile.


This is actually a fair point, but they are the worst turret in the game.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#34 - 2014-05-23 14:59:49 UTC
Man up .... BRAWL!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#35 - 2014-05-23 16:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
I made this quickly. It's a simple First, Second, Third ranking system for the core stats of the biggest medium gun for the 3 turrets.

Gun Ratings

It basically shows the best projection belongs to Lasers, best overall damage goes to Blasters and the best *nothing* goes to Autocannons.

Autocannons don't use Cap - big benefit. They have selectable Damage - Not so big due to omni tanking and the fact that t2 ammo is locked to racial damage types. Also the t2 range bonus ammo for AC's doesn't benefit optimal range at all. Lasers and Blasters both recieve significant Optimal Bonuses and Blasters recieve a further Falloff bonus.

I think a buff to barrage might help AC's. Remembering that falloff is only 50% damage (~38% if hit quality is included, someone done the math years ago but it may not be up to date) that means any bonus to falloff is effectively half of what's it would be for optimal of the same value (the 2x falloff argument doesn't work due to the inverse exponential nature of 2x falloff in the tracking equation). If we half all falloff values for T2 ranged bonused ammo we're left with this:

Blasters: 60% range bonus
Lasers: 50% range bonus
Autos: 25% range bonus

If barrage was a selectable damage type or perhaps 80%-100% falloff bonus then AC's would be phenominal.

All this is pointless discussion however, Rails and Beams are utterly dominant on cruisers hulls right now. The recent buff went too far imo.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2014-05-23 16:53:20 UTC
AC's are fine imo, its null and scorch (especially scorch) that needs a nerf. (ohh and light missiles, **** those things)

They could use a tiny adjustment maybe? but just that, something tiny..

I would really like to see CCP fix the stupid gap in fitting between autos and artys though.. Basically as things are now if they design a ship to use arties.. if you fit ac's on it you have all the ******* fittings in the world.. But if they design it for Ac's there is no utterly ungimpy way to fit arties on it. This is especially true for frigates but also for the bigger versions. Arties would be great.. if you could fit them along with other modules.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-05-23 17:07:23 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

This has already been touched upon with null and scorch shoving barrage aside, but also, Gallente ships are really not that slow anymore, especially since you can choose to fly any race's 'attack' such and such, and have a fast ship (because every race has to have a slow ship and a fast ship now, children..).
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#38 - 2014-05-23 17:19:39 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
Voyager Arran wrote:
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

This has already been touched upon with null and scorch shoving barrage aside, but also, Gallente ships are really not that slow anymore, especially since you can choose to fly any race's 'attack' such and such, and have a fast ship (because every race has to have a slow ship and a fast ship now, children..).


Actually Gallente are the second fastest ships.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#39 - 2014-05-23 22:11:42 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Jon Joringer wrote:
Voyager Arran wrote:
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

This has already been touched upon with null and scorch shoving barrage aside, but also, Gallente ships are really not that slow anymore, especially since you can choose to fly any race's 'attack' such and such, and have a fast ship (because every race has to have a slow ship and a fast ship now, children..).


Actually Gallente are the second fastest ships.


Yea, by such a small margin that at overheated MWD speeds it means nothing.

Why do people keep singing praises about the vagabond btw? Did i not get the memo where they made it less sh*t? Trash capacitor, trash slot layout, No tracking Bonus, Trash HP.

XL-ASB's with a shield boost bonus are nice and everything, but it's still 1 Tracking Disruptor away from being pointless. Go get a Talos... never look back.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-05-23 23:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Voyager Arran wrote:
I haven't noticed blaster ships being excessively common. That lack of projection makes them very inflexible, and being a one-trick pony isn't easy when everyone knows what your trick is as soon as they see your hull on dscan. This is compounded by the fact that they usually need to slow themselves down with armor fits in order to bring enough tackle to actually use their weapons effectively.

I'm also not sure why people are so fixated on keeping their autocannon ships outside of long point range. You absolutely can't afford to get scrammed or webbed, sure, so I probably wouldn't want to get much closer than 20km, but the whole point of the speed most AC ships bring to the table is that they can just walk away from a fight if they don't like the way it's going.



Peopel dont want to leave them outside logn point range. They want to stay far away as possible to do more damage than the blaster ship does with null at that range. Unfortunately that happens almost at tackle limit.

THe increase of null range made the AC projection advantage a niche thing.


just a small memo with the damage graphs i checked that the stabber will out dps a thorax at 14km, a 425mm rupture also. Ok i give u that i might should create a damage graph with the t1 ammo but it shouldnt change that much


EDIT: just did a rf emp ammo to t2 ammo comparison there the rupture loses to the blaster in max damage and range to a null shield rax with ions wins against an electron 1600 plated null rax so, stabber still outperforms a rax at 14km so. I assume the 2 utilities highs and higher tank on the rupture are worth that.