Ships & Modules

Well, losing the ROF bonus would make the cane useless IMO, however:

I'm actually inclined to agree to the idea of nerfing the cane and the drake. As it stands, looking at tier 2 BCs only, that isn't really the answer, because you have 2 good BCs (cane and drake) one niche one that at least does its role well (myrm) and one that just seems...lacking. At first glance it would seem the obvious answer here is to fix the broken one (the harb), but then, it's no secret that the drake is horribly overpowered for what it takes to field one (both in terms of isk and SP), so any solution that brings it down a few pegs (as well as its matari counterpart, which sees almost as much use) seems like a fairly good idea.



The reason people deflect to amarr is quite simple really:
Do you remember who everyone screamed about nerfing before minmatar got their buffs?
Who do you think would emerge as top dog if minmatar got nerfed?
With hybrids (the gun used by EVERY race aside from matar and amarr) just having been buffed, do you think it would be reasonable to compare turrets whose strengths and weaknesses have been well tested for years to them?

There is also the issue of straight up balance. Most of the people who don't want to see minmatar nerfed are against it not because they fly mostly minmatar themselves (many of us don't), but because we're of the opinion that minmatar is fairly well balanced with amarr, and that it's caldari and gallente that need to be brought in line to be competitive. If you nerf minmatar, you make amarr OP, just like they were before minmatar were buffed, when everyone was saying that CCP either needed to nerf lasers, or buff ACs and hybrids.

Someone with sense has posted at last.

Well, how about Minmatar - they are not a 'gank and tank' race. they are skirmishers, the fact that any Mini ship can even come close to matching Amarr or Caldari tank is already crazy considering. And Gallente, they are gank and gank (glass cannon) race) - its a bit broken right now, but thats what they are supposed to be. Caldari are the mushroom race, always have been - but still not gank and tank. They sometimes have tank, but rarely gank. And Shields are generally considered better tankers then armor - although that debate has been raging for 9 years.

My quote was what CCP said to the community when turrets were rebalanced a few years back. According to them, Amarr lazors, with their high fitting requirement, huge cap use, poor tracking, and limited damage type married to a platform that was usually a pure gunship should have the best guns - thats what they envision for Amarr: low utility, high dps (at medium range) and good tank - Amarr balance has always been about finding the right tradeoff for gank to tank - but a pure Amarr ganker (ala gankadon or the Abaddon) should be medium tank, massive dps. Minmatar ships have a completly different set of choises - the option for Mini is high tracking low damage ACs or massive alpha artis. The ships are inherently the same - they both require high speed and both have low tanks (although speed is tank but thats another point). See thats flavor, so when ACs are balanced to Lazers - then it breaks that. And thats why I find the comparison funny - because lazers never competed with blasters, ACs always did. The range to damage kiting game was always based on a dps curb for ACs vs. dps cliff for blasters. If the mini makes one mistake and get caught - they die. Its a nickle and dime combat style - so yah - of course projectiles should do less damage. If they don't then there is no competition - which is why I am saying that there is no reason to choice a blaster boat over an AC boat because ACs have been 'balanced' to lazers. . .

Tachs are a grade higher then 1400s or 425s - the point is that the disadvantages are large. Projectiles were always designed to be one of 4 supplementary weapon systems on a fast and mobile platform. So I am all for balancing the turrets to be on par - but then we also need to take all the positives and negatives as well as the ships into account. But thats basically taking all the 'flavor' out of the game. I am simply saying that on paper lazers are top - the reality and the KBs do not reflect this. And even when Amarr were supposedly top dog - people still flew the Curse.



TE dps gain for minmatar ships is substantial when considering the range benifit and dps curb. There is simply no way to argue that TEs are not a direct dps mod for ACs. To add insult to injuy here - by pushing the range out, you are actually giving a short range wepon system that was designed to have some long range utility for kiting purposes real bite at longer ranges. Whats more, the TE bonus was changed not as a direct AC buff, but because it would counter the TD changes (which were changed to affect optimal and falloff) - the buff was mostly overlooked because this was before the second round of projectile buffs - which have brought that small change into clear focus. For Amarr, the change has minimal effect, but its a major reason blaster ships can't compete.



Other then a very specilized set of sniper setups for the Zelot and the BBs - I have never actually seen a good setup that uses TEs or TCs. TCs because mids are well. . .a rare thing. And TEs because a Heatsink is almost always a better option. This being eve of course, there are people who will fit anything to anything - but the gain from a TE on an Amarr ship is minimal - much better to use that slot for a hardener/plate (tank) or more HS (gank). A mini ship without a TE is petty much gimping themselves imo.

Well, how about Minmatar - they are not a 'gank and tank' race. they are skirmishers, the fact that any Mini ship can even come close to matching Amarr or Caldari tank is already crazy considering. And Gallente, they are gank and gank (glass cannon) race) - its a bit broken right now, but thats what they are supposed to be. Caldari are the mushroom race, always have been - but still not gank and tank. They sometimes have tank, but rarely gank. And Shields are generally considered better tankers then armor - although that debate has been raging for 9 years.[/quote]

Counterpoints: Maelstrom, Cyclone, Sleipnir.

The Maelstrom is outright slow, the Cyclone and Sleipnir aren't particularly fast, but they can all (active) tank like bosses, the Muninn does about the same speed as every other shield HACs (less the Vaga which gives up one of it's bonuses for speed). Meanwhile snipe HACs were traditionally Zealot heavy but hey, Amarr can't skirmish, right? Triple rep Myrms and dual-rep Hypes, but Gallente can't tank, right?

And I'd only say shields are better tankers when you talk active. Armor gives more EHP, hands down.



Whatever intent CCP had years ago has long been lost in today's EVE. Also, this narrative of Amarr ships being pure gunships is just untrue: a Geddon that gets roughly a quarter of it's max DPS from drones is no more a pure gunship than a Tempest that gets roughly 75% of it's max DPS from turrets. A Harbinger much the same story, it's 50m3 dronebay accounting for roughly the same ratio of total DPS as a Hurricane fitted with missiles and damage drones. If one wanted to be absurd, I could point that Abaddon has a launcher slot. The only Amarr gunship with a smaller dronebay than it's Minmatar equivalent I can think of off the top of my head is the Zealot.

And I don't see how pulse lasers aren't competing with blasters if autos are: both do damage, frequently to each other. An Amarr ship does about the same DPS as Minmatar at hullbump ranges, with the additional advantage of (generally) having more tank... how does this not also place them in competition with blasters?



I've never argued that TE/TCs weren't a direct DPS mod. I have argued that lasers benefit just as much: see hellcats frying Drakes and Maelstroms at 70km. I would say blasters too, but don't have much experience with blaster boats (huge shocker, I know).



The most common Amarr BS setup uses 2x TCs. I'm not sure how you missed Hellcats, given the specific fit and fleet comp is well over a year old now, but they are pretty much FOTM for seriousface fights because they can effectively reach well into medium ranges with around 600-800 DPS, good tracking (relative to their size) and sport around 180-300K EHP tank.

Ruah Piskonit yep, matar should have lost his speed advantage when ac-s were buffed.
Just look at the tornado wtf is that 1660mps , that is faster than my nano cruisers... clearly unbalanced.

Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors. The medium range dps projection is only good at medium range because of tracking too - the two go hand and hand. With Autos, there is no 'under7 the guns because if you are tracking, he is tracking better. For Gallente then, it is the massive DPS that overcomes tracking, for Mini, its out tracking the blasters and lazors and the low sig to tank missles better. I really cannot stress how important tracking is when you calculate dps. Pulse tracking was buffed so many years ago because it was just too easy to get under the guns and negate a large part of lazor dps. No cap, best tracking, ease of fitting, damage projection, damage types. Only the first three were traditionally AC, damage projection is a lazor trate, damage types were always a missle/drone trait. The no cap, ease of fitting and tracking were all there as positives to the crap dps that projectiles do.

And the no cap thing was added early - it used to be 1 cap per shot - but considering the poor dps, CCP decided that mataar ships should keep all their cap for mobility (AB/MWD).



These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .

So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?

Eve ate my post. Needless to say, you are an idiot and your post is full of idiotic words that are wrong. Please stop now.

Your point never stood. A zealot has twice the EHP of a vaga, an abso nearly twice that of a sleip, you want to compare what a pest brings to the field with an abaddon? Please.

Minmatar trade tank for speed. Nothing wrong with that. (note that there are a couple of exceptions, the cane being the most notable because it actually IS somewhat in need of a nerf)
Lasers track a lot better than you seem to think they do, or did you forget when CCP gave them an extra 25% tracking? It's also worth noting that if you're unable to track a same-size target in an amarr ship that you are doing a very, VERY poor job at flying.



Minmatar have always been popular in smaller skirmishes and for pirating. They are, for the most part, well balanced with amarr. You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea.

at least amarr is catcheable:P

I never really understood the "nerf" mentality. Would it not make more sense to bring the surrounding systems in line with the so called OP ones, rather then removing parts of said system?

In the formers case, you can balance the other systems around the "OP" one. This has the advantage of allowing you to have a base to draw from in regards to balance. You can use the base as a guideline to move the other systems in line until they are about equal, without butchering the other system.

The latter, the nerf option, has the function of gutting parts of the system said to be overpowered... which would create a cascade of unbalances in the other system. You no longer have that base to work from, and the unbalances in the other systems will be much harder to fix. Not only will you now have to balance the system you just gutted, but you also have to balance every other systems with that one. Example being you bring Minny "in line" with the others. But now Amarr is overpowered. You now have to bring both minmatar and amarr back in line, while readjusting the other two to deal with the new values.

Seems to be it would take much more time and effort.

I never did understand the need for nerfs. I'm a pro-buff man myself.