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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Hellsonfire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#561 - 2011-12-02 22:41:00 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Xpaulusx wrote:
Mimmy are fine as is. No need to screw with them.

you fly them we get it


And you clearly cant fly for ****, we clearly get that.

Go back to minecraft and stack some bricks kiddo.
Ultroth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#562 - 2011-12-02 23:03:57 UTC
There was a time when this was commonly seen in forum posts just like this one.....

M - Might
A - Aswell
T - Train
A - Another
R - Race

Now see this....

Blink

"It's better to to stay silent and appear stupid, than to open your mouth and leave no doubt!"
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2011-12-03 07:49:00 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Kiran wrote:
I dont think they are over powered and I fly the Minmatar ships and been in fights against them.

If you want over powered I would say the Curse is, but you dont seem me coming here to cry about it. I try to figure ways round their strengths to hit them where it hurts.

The Tornado has the lowest EHP of the Tier 3 BC's and medium DPS compaired to the other Tier3's. I don't think thats over powered, I just think it gives me a challange when trying to fit it to gain from its strengths.

omg another matard fanboy... how many are there ?:O


The WoW mentality is strong with this one.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#564 - 2011-12-03 09:21:02 UTC
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#565 - 2011-12-03 11:11:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

hmm good ill move some from jita then after dt $.$
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#566 - 2011-12-03 18:22:06 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

hmm good ill move some from jita then after dt $.$


Thanks, I'm too lazy to fly that far and I really need more MFS for the 20 Deimos and Harpies I bought.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#567 - 2011-12-03 19:35:41 UTC
Zagam wrote:
Actually, I mis-stated the OP's age... he was created 2007.04.21. As for him being older, I was created 2006.02.01.

Also, the intent of my post was not to get into an e-peen contest, but rather call the OP out for trolling (I'll have to upgrade their troll score to 4/10, for the sheer number of posts and real discussion).


I'm still waiting for Zagam to upgrade my troll score. This was from page three.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#568 - 2011-12-03 21:40:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#569 - 2011-12-03 21:43:27 UTC
Hellsonfire wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Xpaulusx wrote:
Mimmy are fine as is. No need to screw with them.

you fly them we get it


And you clearly cant fly for ****, we clearly get that.

Go back to minecraft and stack some bricks kiddo.

If you don´t win 10 times out of 10 against a gallente subcap, you are the one that clearly can´t fly.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#570 - 2011-12-04 03:11:23 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#571 - 2011-12-04 04:45:40 UTC
Hybrids are not overpowered. I'm hoping some in this thread are trolling Roll. Anyway, their has been a significant change to hybrids. Rail-gun tended to be the only other option to artillery-cannon in ship classes not heavily bonused for their use.

For example; a Muninn has bonuses for using artillery, but most t1 Minmatar ships that are not specialised are able to use them. Most Amarr ships are not capable of this, because of the huge capacitor consumption of beam lasers. Rail-gun does not have that issue for the most part and now uses even less capacitor and power grid. How this translate into our current environment will be interesting.

All these set-ups below are a alternative to using artillery, but for Gallente ships to be viable in fleets. Medium Rail-gun will have no issues tracking ships destroyers and above @ around 12,000 meters and above. Minus some Cpu and power-grid issues on some ships. These set-ups are very viable. Again, a alternative to artillery-canon. Not to mention the utility of a large drone bay by all ships below. So yeah! Rail-guns are now significantly easier for most hybrid platforms to fit. Caldari hybrid ships are still pretty bad for the most part and I am speaking about the ships (bonuses, drones, damage or lack there of) and not the weapon system.


Brutix
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Valkyrie II x5

[Thorax,
Overdrive Injector System II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


[Deimos
Overdrive Injector System II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2011-12-04 04:53:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang


This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before.

Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing.
There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge.

This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems.

While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren´t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don´t need as much skill and mistakes aren´t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn´t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap.

Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it.

The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn´t work otherwise, you can´t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.)

So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won´t solve any balancing issue.

So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved:
Minmatar being OP: they aren´t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty.
Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won´t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere.
Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won´t be just only missiles any more.
reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2011-12-04 04:56:03 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang



how exactly are you using rails? i find medium rails require way too much CPU still and do not give enough dps.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#574 - 2011-12-04 05:25:18 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang


This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before.

Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing.
There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge.

This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems.

While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren´t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don´t need as much skill and mistakes aren´t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn´t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap.

Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it.

The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn´t work otherwise, you can´t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.)

So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won´t solve any balancing issue.

So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved:
Minmatar being OP: they aren´t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty.
Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won´t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere.
Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won´t be just only missiles any more.
reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).


If I hadn't been on these forums so long, I'd find it hard to believe so many :words: could be so wrong.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2011-12-04 05:34:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang


This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before.

Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing.
There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge.

This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems.

While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren´t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don´t need as much skill and mistakes aren´t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn´t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap.

Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it.

The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn´t work otherwise, you can´t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.)

So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won´t solve any balancing issue.

So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved:
Minmatar being OP: they aren´t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty.
Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won´t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere.
Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won´t be just only missiles any more.
reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).


If I hadn't been on these forums so long, I'd find it hard to believe so many :words: could be so wrong.

-Liang

I on the other hand have no trouble to believe so few :words: are needed to be this wrong.P
Btw, care to elaborate where you have difficulties with my point? I did skip some explanations because i didn´t want to go into too much detail. Maybe that caused some confusion?

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#576 - 2011-12-04 05:39:52 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

I on the other hand have no trouble to believe so few :words: are needed to be this wrong.P
Btw, care to elaborate where you have difficulties with my point? I did skip some explanations because i didn´t want to go into too much detail. Maybe that caused some confusion?


It's complete bullshit to say that Hybrids were dealing 30% of their DPS while projectiles are laying out 80%. Take a good long hard look at the Thorax and construct new Thorax vs Rupture arguments. I think you'll start to see that the Thorax is going to quickly replace the Rupture as the FOTM cruiser.

Eve is going to realign to a Gallente/Amarr FOTM again. If you want to do small gang up close work, you're going to use Hybrids. Everything else is going to be lasers. There's just not going to be room on the battlefield for Minmatar - their tanks are crap, and threading the needle for DPS just doesn't work outside of 1v1s.

I'm not complaining - I don't care. I can (and do) fly it all.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#577 - 2011-12-04 05:58:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

I on the other hand have no trouble to believe so few :words: are needed to be this wrong.P
Btw, care to elaborate where you have difficulties with my point? I did skip some explanations because i didn´t want to go into too much detail. Maybe that caused some confusion?


It's complete bullshit to say that Hybrids were dealing 30% of their DPS while projectiles are laying out 80%. Take a good long hard look at the Thorax and construct new Thorax vs Rupture arguments. I think you'll start to see that the Thorax is going to quickly replace the Rupture as the FOTM cruiser.

Eve is going to realign to a Gallente/Amarr FOTM again. If you want to do small gang up close work, you're going to use Hybrids. Everything else is going to be lasers. There's just not going to be room on the battlefield for Minmatar - their tanks are crap, and threading the needle for DPS just doesn't work outside of 1v1s.

I'm not complaining - I don't care. I can (and do) fly it all.

-Liang

I said on average you get those values. You can get in better shots on occasion, often not as good...
And it´s just a fact that you get with ACs far more good hits into the target than with blasters and ending up with considerably more damage with ACs. The gap has lessened a bit but close combat is AC territory and since the Gallente can´t be changed accordingly it will remain AC territory.
And while i´m not restricted to the Gallente (so it´s not really a necessity for me to make them a viable alternative) i do like the look of quite a few Gallente boats and i was hoping i could enjoy a little bit more time in them while doing something interesting with them and not just for flying around.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#578 - 2011-12-04 06:02:02 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

I said on average you get those values. You can get in better shots on occasion, often not as good...
And it´s just a fact that you get with ACs far more good hits into the target than with blasters and ending up with considerably more damage with ACs. The gap has lessened a bit but close combat is AC territory and since the Gallente can´t be changed accordingly it will remain AC territory.
And while i´m not restricted to the Gallente (so it´s not really a necessity for me to make them a viable alternative) i do like the look of quite a few Gallente boats and i was hoping i could enjoy a little bit more time in them while doing something interesting with them and not just for flying around.


Stop flying blasters like they're lasers or ACs and you won't have that problem anymore. That or fit some TEs and use null.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2011-12-04 06:27:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

I said on average you get those values. You can get in better shots on occasion, often not as good...
And it´s just a fact that you get with ACs far more good hits into the target than with blasters and ending up with considerably more damage with ACs. The gap has lessened a bit but close combat is AC territory and since the Gallente can´t be changed accordingly it will remain AC territory.
And while i´m not restricted to the Gallente (so it´s not really a necessity for me to make them a viable alternative) i do like the look of quite a few Gallente boats and i was hoping i could enjoy a little bit more time in them while doing something interesting with them and not just for flying around.


Stop flying blasters like they're lasers or ACs and you won't have that problem anymore. That or fit some TEs and use null.

-Liang

Oh, don´t worry, i can make blasters work. But when i say "something interesting" i am talking about real pvp where you can´t afford to fly with gimped weapons because your opponents aren´t handicapped and won´t screw up. In PvE and so-called "PvP-fights" that aren´t much more challenging than PvE you can just use about any trash and still win... it´s kinda meh... boring...

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#580 - 2011-12-04 06:36:02 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Oh, don´t worry, i can make blasters work. But when i say "something interesting" i am talking about real pvp where you can´t afford to fly with gimped weapons because your opponents aren´t handicapped and won´t screw up. In PvE and so-called "PvP-fights" that aren´t much more challenging than PvE you can just use about any trash and still win... it´s kinda meh... boring...


Nice No True Scottsman fallacy there.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.