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Scanning Upgrades require activation now?

First post First post
Author
Belle Mallissima
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-05-22 06:07:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing to note, this change was requested by quite a few wormhole players immediately after Odyssey and was one of the common requests from the wormhole members of CSM 8. They correctly argued that having these modules passive removes any choice or risk around them and skews the balance between midslots and lowslots for probing ships.

I've had this item on my list of CSM requested wormhole improvements for a while.


*insert personal attack on those WH CSM8 members here*

As others have said, those modules are only ever fit to covops, which have the tank of a wet paper bag anyway. Their use on any other scanning ship is non-existent. Cloaking tech3 and recons will use the slots for tank or tackle anyway. I do a LOT of scanning, and the passive modules as they are make that a reasonably pleasurable experience.

Making these modules active will just get me to scout and scan less, and reprocess all the modules, as they are utterly useless if you're not cloaked. A wormhole dweller who isn't cloaked is just looking to get shot, and if I can't efficiently scan a hostile hole without decloaking, then I plain will not bother.

If you want to even the balance between slots, then a low power passive low slot version, and a mid-slot higher power active version will do that quite nicely. Or even, for variety, keep the mid slot variant the low power passive module and put the active module in as a low slot.
Tribal Solidarity
Garoun Investment Bank
#102 - 2014-05-22 07:44:53 UTC
This would make total sense if you hadn't nerfed scanning kills to implement these modules but, since you did, the comments about how people managed before these modules existed are pretty much moot.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
Silent Company
#103 - 2014-05-22 08:14:28 UTC
Tribal Solidarity wrote:
This would make total sense if you hadn't nerfed scanning kills to implement these modules but, since you did, the comments about how people managed before these modules existed are pretty much moot.

What skills have been nerved?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Darren Fox
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#104 - 2014-05-22 08:36:28 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Tribal Solidarity wrote:
This would make total sense if you hadn't nerfed scanning kills to implement these modules but, since you did, the comments about how people managed before these modules existed are pretty much moot.

What skills have been nerved?


Not a nerf as such. Half of the skill bonus from the three supporting astrometrics skills were moved to astrometrics itself

Still, this change is a Wormhole Quality of Life reduction as currently suggested. As Cosmic pointed out, the warp changes affected combat scanning as well.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
Silent Company
#105 - 2014-05-22 09:11:20 UTC
Right, not even "as such", it was more like a buff because it is now easier / faster to get usefull skills.

Also we get new cheaper Virture set that gives 20% scanning bonus. One could say that is a Wormhole Quality of Life increase :)

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Gosti Kahanid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2014-05-22 09:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gosti Kahanid
For the last few years I had no problem with combat- and chain-scanning in WHs. Maybe I missed something, but can somebody explain to me how scanning is going to be harder than it was a year ago bevore CCP had the ideotic Idea to boost scanning even more with those modules (as the new much more easy to use interface and scanning-system was not enough)?
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#107 - 2014-05-22 10:06:09 UTC
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
For the last few years I had no problem with combat- and chain-scanning in WHs. Maybe I missed something, but can somebody explain to me how scanning is going to be harder than it was a year ago bevore CCP had the ideotic Idea to boost scanning even more with those modules (as the new much more easy to use interface and scanning-system was not enough)?


It won't be a 'problem', however, I fail to see why it should be better for scanning to take longer. As I tried to explain in my last post, the usefulness of such a change is negligible compared to the drawbacks for a big number of probers. It's also not a balanced change as it only really affects wormholers negatively. Also, let me mention again that combat probing was already nerfed once not long ago when CCP introduced the sensor compensation skills

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820
Gosti Kahanid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2014-05-22 10:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gosti Kahanid
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
For the last few years I had no problem with combat- and chain-scanning in WHs. Maybe I missed something, but can somebody explain to me how scanning is going to be harder than it was a year ago bevore CCP had the ideotic Idea to boost scanning even more with those modules (as the new much more easy to use interface and scanning-system was not enough)?


It won't be a 'problem', however, I fail to see why it should be better for scanning to take longer. As I tried to explain in my last post, the usefulness of such a change is negligible compared to the drawbacks for a big number of probers. It's also not a balanced change as it only really affects wormholers negatively. Also, let me mention again that combat probing was already nerfed once not long ago when CCP introduced the sensor compensation skills

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820


Well, this argument I can understand. This could realy be a good reason to look into the formula of scanning. The sensor compensation skills were introduced to counter ECM in the first line, effects on the scanning were a negativ side-effekt of that.

Question to CCP SoniCover and Fozzi: Can we do something about this? Or what is your opinion to this argument?
Luscius Uta
#109 - 2014-05-22 11:34:16 UTC
If this change is meant to nerf combat scanning only, why not simply change the modules so they won't affect combat probes? You can also introduce active modules that will affect combat probes but will also provide better bonuses. That way everyone would be pleased.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Gwen Waokno
The Grey Eagles
#110 - 2014-05-22 11:56:57 UTC
I'm part of a WH corp. Our evening usually starts with a period of scanning systems (average say 10) to find content. Both PVE and PVP. This change will increase the time we need to scan or decrease the amount of systems we can find content in. Scanning is the least interesting thing to do so it would shift the balance between fun things to do and less fun things to do. Not a good development from my point of view.

An important part of our corp is the training of new players. The modules compensate for the low skills of their characters and enable them to participate in scanning WHs. It helps them join our group activities. Effectively removing these modules for WH will increase the skill limit before people can join us. As such it will have quite an impact on our recruiting. Dissapointing. It will reduce the amount of content available for new players.
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-05-22 12:33:46 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.


Could be possible, as we're delaying making any changes here until Crius, we can take a look. We'll keep you updated once we dug into it a bit more.

Removing there effect from only combat probes does not address the risk vs reward ratio that is brought by them for PVE scanning though. Making them active does.


PvE scanning already has an implicit danger from being exposed while hacking, as you are literally a sitting duck.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#112 - 2014-05-22 13:15:03 UTC
Scanning through the thread (hurr hurr), I've seen a few decent ideas.

- Only requiring the modules to be active for combat probes.
- Adding a new set of active modules, and keeping the passive ones

One I'd like to suggest is giving them similar functionality to what active armor and shield hardeners had before they were tweaked: their usual big bonus to resists when online and activated (55% for T2), and a much smaller passive bonus for when they were online but not activated (5% before skills, iirc).

Currently the scanning modules are set up so that the T2 module provides twice the T1 module's bonus. I'll keep that in these example numbers - bear in mind I am not entirely familiar with the calculations so the numbers I suggest may be too small or too large. As a general rule I am making the "active" bonus about 25% stronger than the current bonus, and reducing (but not removing) the passive bonus to about 50% of current values. This way the T1 active bonus remains larger than the T2 passive bonus, but the passive bonuses still provide a small but tangible benefit.

Scan Acquisition Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Duration Bonus (Passive): 2.50%
Scan Duration Bonus (Active): 6.25%

Scan Acquisition Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Duration Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Duration Bonus (Active): 12.50%


Scan Pinpointing Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Deviation Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Deviation Bonus (Active): 12.50%

Scan Pinpointing Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Deviation Bonus (Passive): 10.00%
Scan Deviation Bonus (Active): 25.00%

Scan Rangefinding Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Strength Bonus (Passive): 2.50%
Scan Strength Bonus (Active): 6.25%

Scan Rangefinding Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Strength Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Strength Bonus (Active): 12.50%


Thoughts?

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Gosti Kahanid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2014-05-22 13:46:44 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Scanning through the thread (hurr hurr), I've seen a few decent ideas.

- Only requiring the modules to be active for combat probes.
- Adding a new set of active modules, and keeping the passive ones

One I'd like to suggest is giving them similar functionality to what active armor and shield hardeners had before they were tweaked: their usual big bonus to resists when online and activated (55% for T2), and a much smaller passive bonus for when they were online but not activated (5% before skills, iirc).

Currently the scanning modules are set up so that the T2 module provides twice the T1 module's bonus. I'll keep that in these example numbers - bear in mind I am not entirely familiar with the calculations so the numbers I suggest may be too small or too large. As a general rule I am making the "active" bonus about 25% stronger than the current bonus, and reducing (but not removing) the passive bonus to about 50% of current values. This way the T1 active bonus remains larger than the T2 passive bonus, but the passive bonuses still provide a small but tangible benefit.

Scan Acquisition Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Duration Bonus (Passive): 2.50%
Scan Duration Bonus (Active): 6.25%

Scan Acquisition Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Duration Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Duration Bonus (Active): 12.50%


Scan Pinpointing Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Deviation Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Deviation Bonus (Active): 12.50%

Scan Pinpointing Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Deviation Bonus (Passive): 10.00%
Scan Deviation Bonus (Active): 25.00%

Scan Rangefinding Array I
Activation Cost: 10GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Strength Bonus (Passive): 2.50%
Scan Strength Bonus (Active): 6.25%

Scan Rangefinding Array II
Activation Cost: 12GJ
Activation Time: 12s
Scan Strength Bonus (Passive): 5.00%
Scan Strength Bonus (Active): 12.50%


Thoughts?


I Like this Idea. +1 from an old WH-Dweller^^
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#114 - 2014-05-22 13:52:59 UTC
To be fair, looking back at those numbers, I think the passive bonus values could stand to be tweaked downward a little further, but a reduction to 25% of current values seems too harsh. Someone familiar with the calculations will have to take a stab at it!

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Meytal
Doomheim
#115 - 2014-05-22 15:54:25 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
One I'd like to suggest is giving them similar functionality to what active armor and shield hardeners had before they were tweaked: their usual big bonus to resists when online and activated (55% for T2), and a much smaller passive bonus for when they were online but not activated (5% before skills, iirc).

The only negative about this idea is that it still unfairly targets W-space residents while Nullsec and Hisec residents are completely unaffected by these changes. It would make a little more sense if the population levels were the opposite of what they are now, but Nullsec and Hisec have the two largest populations in the game.

If you drop combats in Hisec, you're probably hunting for ninja salvage targets. Cloaking is unnecessary.
If you drop combats in Nullsec, you probably control the field and are looking for that pod or ship that got away. Cloaking is unnecessary.
If you drop combats in W-space, you're probably trying to one-hit scan that combat ship in a Cosmic Signature who doesn't know you're there so you can land on him before your probes spook him. Cloaking keeps you from spooking your target.

The suggestion you omitted which proposed that scanning upgrade modules no longer affect combat probes will target each group equally while still achieving CCP's stated goal of making combat scanning a little more difficult.
killerlman
Fast Flow in Slow Motion
White Sky.
#116 - 2014-05-22 16:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: killerlman
Meytal wrote:
If you drop combats in Nullsec, you probably control the field and are looking for that pod or ship that got away. Cloaking is unnecessary.


Not exactly.How can i control the 500~ local while im tryin to find ECCM'd t3? Obv i will get bombers fleet on my ass. To scan me down there is no need to fit anything but probe launcher while im uncloaked.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#117 - 2014-05-22 16:25:01 UTC
Yet another very useless and needless change to wspace.


Wts scanning mid slot modules as they are pointless for wspace now.

CCP, do you even know wth are you doing anymore? No idea who thought this was a good idea.

This changes nothing but potentially making scanning take longer than it already does.

Gg I guess.

I'm right behind you

Meytal
Doomheim
#118 - 2014-05-22 17:14:11 UTC
killerlman wrote:
Meytal wrote:
If you drop combats in Nullsec, you probably control the field and are looking for that pod or ship that got away. Cloaking is unnecessary.


Not exactly.How can i control the 500~ local while im tryin to find ECCM'd t3? Obv i will get bombers fleet on my ass. To scan me down there is no need to fit anything but probe launcher while im uncloaked.

No offense intended, but can you restate this? I'm totally not understanding what you've written.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#119 - 2014-05-22 17:21:38 UTC
Darren Fox wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Tribal Solidarity wrote:
This would make total sense if you hadn't nerfed scanning kills to implement these modules but, since you did, the comments about how people managed before these modules existed are pretty much moot.

What skills have been nerved?


Not a nerf as such. Half of the skill bonus from the three supporting astrometrics skills were moved to astrometrics itself

Still, this change is a Wormhole Quality of Life reduction as currently suggested. As Cosmic pointed out, the warp changes affected combat scanning as well.


There was no nerf. In fact, there was an overall buff, as you ended up with slightly higher probing bonuses per level trained of each if you had them all only trained to 4 or below.
killerlman
Fast Flow in Slow Motion
White Sky.
#120 - 2014-05-22 18:26:17 UTC
Meytal wrote:
killerlman wrote:
Meytal wrote:
If you drop combats in Nullsec, you probably control the field and are looking for that pod or ship that got away. Cloaking is unnecessary.


Not exactly.How can i control the 500~ local while im tryin to find ECCM'd t3? Obv i will get bombers fleet on my ass. To scan me down there is no need to fit anything but probe launcher while im uncloaked.

No offense intended, but can you restate this? I'm totally not understanding what you've written.


Im telling you that controlling the local isnt controlling the field.When i decloaked i am vulnerable to shoot.
The guy who will scan me dont need virtue with pricy hull with fit.But i do,i need virtue and pricy fit to scan and hunt down boosters when huge fleets are fighting. The risk is too high with these changes.