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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#661 - 2014-05-22 15:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked

But I see what you mean, but it isn't the ship talking here, it is your SP and experience.

AFs terrify me.


Within a week you can put 2 Warp jammer points, a web and a MWD on any frigate

Next time you get caught by a gate camp you wont be laughing at that Kestrel then


It's funny, when I first said to myself, man these SP and tech 2 equipments for my frigate aren't so great, I should be fine with, as you said, 2 scrams a web and a MWD/AB, it's just mini-maxing.

Then I got 2 of my friends and we got 3v1'd by a high SP assault frig.

Then I saw the difference between a "week" frigate and a rank 5 mastery and I realised I was totally naive.


Oh, well if a group of scrubs got blown up by one guy who knew what he was doing, I guess you're definitely right, T1 frigs are crap, and I should stop using them at once. Roll[/quote]


If "knew what he was doing" involves being tackled by 3 frigates and out-boosting our damage, then whatever. I was more referring to the common misconception that you can get in a rifter after a week of training and not get utterly annihilated. When I first started playing, I was told this a hell of a lot.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


It's funny, when I first said to myself, man these SP and tech 2 equipments for my frigate aren't so great, I should be fine with, as you said, 2 scrams a web and a MWD/AB, it's just mini-maxing.

Then I got 2 of my friends and we got 3v1'd by a high SP assault frig.

Then I saw the difference between a "week" frigate and a rank 5 mastery and I realised I was totally naive.


But your incident is only half the story

Did he get the drop on you? Were your frigates built to specificallly work together? Were you using appropriate ammo? When it because clear you werent going to break his tank, what was your disengaging strategy?

I could ask many many more questions, but all of them will have no bearing on skill points held by either side


As I said, we got the jump on him, my frig was fitted for longer range (was an Amarr), my friend had a Rifter who was fitted to tackle, and my other friend (somebody we found off militia chat originally) was teaching us about complexes, was his usual merlin fit.

At least be honest lol, SP is incredibly important in this situation.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#662 - 2014-05-22 15:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Turdas Tundra wrote:

If "knew what he was doing" involves being tackled by 3 frigates and out-boosting our damage, then whatever. I was more referring to the common misconception that you can get in a rifter after a week of training and not get utterly annihilated. When I first started playing, I was told this a hell of a lot.


And did those who told you such actually stick around to show you what to do with this ship?

Im betting not

"Bart, people who beat you up are not your friends"

You are not at fault for your conclusions, but those who brought you in failed in their responsibility to help you learn about the game

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#663 - 2014-05-22 15:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

If "knew what he was doing" involves being tackled by 3 frigates and out-boosting our damage, then whatever. I was more referring to the common misconception that you can get in a rifter after a week of training and not get utterly annihilated. When I first started playing, I was told this a hell of a lot.


And did those who told you such actually stick around to show you what to do with this ship?

Im betting not

"Bart, people who beat you up are not your friends"

You are not at fault for your conclusions, but those who brought you in failed in their responsibility to help you learn about the game



As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess. But say a veteran made a new account and after a week, got in a Rifter and fought an equally skilled (player skill) AF pilot. Would it be a fair fight?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#664 - 2014-05-22 15:28:50 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess.


You needed/need a decent mentor

Infact a mentor programme would sort 90% of the problems of retention that have been mentioned in this thread so far

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#665 - 2014-05-22 15:30:49 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:

As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess. But say a veteran made a new account and after a week, got in a Rifter and fought an equally skilled (player skill) AF pilot. Would it be a fair fight?


Should it be?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#666 - 2014-05-22 15:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Galen Darksmith
Turdas Tundra wrote:

As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess.


That's weird. Every beginner PvP guide I've seen goes something along the lines of

Quote:
You are going to lose. You are going to lose a lot.

Seriously, buy your ships in bulk. As in, multiples of 50. You'll probably lose 100 ships before you kill anything.

But each time you die? Learn why you died. Maybe it was because the ship you were flying against was a natural counter. Maybe you didn't spiral in properly and you got popped due to low traversal. Maybe you had the wrong ammo type for the fight loaded. Maybe you weren't aligned properly, or warped to a gate with an aggression timer and got caught.

Eventually, you'll be keeping all this in mind when you fly. You'll know what you can and can't engage. You'll know what distance to keep out, and how to maintain situational awareness. That is when you'll start winning. By then you'll have enough SP for another ship you want to fly.

Then you'll start losing again.

Welcome to EVE.



And if it doesn't? It's wrong.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#667 - 2014-05-22 15:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess.


You needed/need a decent mentor

Infact a mentor programme would sort 90% of the problems of retention that have been mentioned in this thread so far



I'm not sure this would fix the problem when the community and game is so hostile to new players. The elitist attitude I've seen in this game is absurd.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess. But say a veteran made a new account and after a week, got in a Rifter and fought an equally skilled (player skill) AF pilot. Would it be a fair fight?


Should it be?


No

So for god sake stop claiming that it is a fair fight and SP doesn't matter.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#668 - 2014-05-22 15:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Galen Darksmith
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess.


You needed/need a decent mentor

Infact a mentor programme would sort 90% of the problems of retention that have been mentioned in this thread so far



I'm not sure this would fix the problem when the community and game is so hostile to new players. The elitist attitude I've seen in this game is absurd.


Try the New Player Forums: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=257

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#669 - 2014-05-22 15:33:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess. But say a veteran made a new account and after a week, got in a Rifter and fought an equally skilled (player skill) AF pilot. Would it be a fair fight?


Should it be?


Yeah, I mean why should it be? That AF costs 33mil and that T1 is 500,000isk.

BUT

Ive seen an Iteron kill a Falcon

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#670 - 2014-05-22 15:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Turdas Tundra wrote:


As I said, we got the jump on him, my frig was fitted for longer range (was an Amarr), my friend had a Rifter who was fitted to tackle, and my other friend (somebody we found off militia chat originally) was teaching us about complexes, was his usual merlin fit.

At least be honest lol, SP is incredibly important in this situation.



There aren't any losses on your killboard that match what you're describing. You lost an amarr ship (punisher and your only amarrian ship lost) against a comet AND an atron - neither are AFs.

You did lose a brawler fit slasher against an Enyo, and your friend lost a Rifter against the same Enyo at approximately the same time. I'm going to assume that's the incident you're referring to.


Let's analyze that loss, shall we?

Your opponent was flying a buffer fit, plated, blaster Enyo. This means that he was capable of very good damage at point blank range. He was also a bit sluggish, thanks to the plate, and while he could definitely soak some damage, he could not tank indefinitely.

You engage this superior brawler on his terms, with other ships fit for brawling. Thing is, a single fast kiter could have picked him apart. Too slow to catch a kiter, his blasters would not have been able to reach, and his buffer tank would eventually run out of EHP.

You could have won that fight, pretty much regardless of SP, if you knew what you were doing and were in the ships to do it. As it was, more experience would have prevented you from engaging that ship using the ships you were flying.

Edit: My mistake, tiny eve-kill icons. He did have an MWD... but would still be slower than, e.g., a kiting fit breacher or condor. So, not a huge deal there - he could still be outpaced and outranged.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#671 - 2014-05-22 15:39:16 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess.


You needed/need a decent mentor

Infact a mentor programme would sort 90% of the problems of retention that have been mentioned in this thread so far



I'm not sure this would fix the problem when the community and game is so hostile to new players. The elitist attitude I've seen in this game is absurd.


Wouldnt it fix the problem because then the community wouldnt be hostile to new players, they would be giving them the training they need?

But let me put this into perspective for you;


CEO: Ok theres a War Dec on, so please dont go mining
Newbie: OK I wont

(1 dead Retriever later)

CEO: Ok, what did you do wrong?
Newbie: I mined in a war
CEO: And what did you learn?
Newbie: Not to mine in a war

(Two Days & another KM later)

CEO: Why is there another dead Retriever?
Newbie: I was bored so I was mining during a war
CEO: GTFO of my corp

Now, is the Newbie at fault for doing something stupid twice, or the CEO for not teaching the new player what to do properly and leaving him to himself?

In the first instance, the "veteran" CEO has now got a bad taste for new players because he didnt listen, but by comparison the CEO is even more at fault for not explaining things properly. He knew what was happening but didnt take more decisive action to train and protect the new player.

This situation happens HUNDREDS of times every DAY in this game.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#672 - 2014-05-22 15:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Turdas Tundra wrote:
[
I'm not sure this would fix the problem when the community and game is so hostile to new players. The elitist attitude I've seen in this game is absurd.


I genuinely don't understand where you're getting this from. The community in game is one of the most helpful and friendly I have ever seen or heard of.

I've seen people get blown up, explain they were a noob, ask for assistance and been showered with isk by half the people in local. I've given out isk to more than a few new players as well.

Sure, if you cry and whine about things they will fall on you like the Sword of Damocles, but that is because you have demonstrated a poor attitude, which is to be punished.


Quote:

No

So for god sake stop claiming that it is a fair fight and SP doesn't matter.


The two are different things. That's not a fair fight, but skillpoints aren't everything. They are not the defining factor in success in EVE.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#673 - 2014-05-22 15:42:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

As much as beginner pvp guides on the internet can teach you I guess. But say a veteran made a new account and after a week, got in a Rifter and fought an equally skilled (player skill) AF pilot. Would it be a fair fight?


Should it be?


Yeah, I mean why should it be? That AF costs 33mil and that T1 is 500,000isk.

BUT

Ive seen an Iteron kill a Falcon


There is a guy in my alliance who specializes in killing Tornados with exploration frigates.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#674 - 2014-05-22 15:43:48 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aside wrote:
EVE has survived this long with damn near no internal documentation of a lot of things and with crappy attempts at tutorials
this doesn't prohibit improvement of the system.


No it doesn't But how many times in human history have people taken something that was working just fine (in this case as evidenced by the continuation of EVE) and tried to 'make it better' only to make it worse.

Hell, how many times have we seen it in this game by well meaning Developers? I remember a null sec systems upgrades buff that was supposed to make things better (ie give us a reason to fight) which ended up giving us a reason to move alts to high sec lol.

I remember a massive change the the SOv system (from POS based to new structure base) that was supposed to make SOV null less grindy ...but made SOV warfare so Grindy whole coalitions grew up around the idea of not doing it lol.

I remember how CCP revamped tutorials in the past with the goal of retaining more players and such. We see how well that worked out as well

I think this thread (along with more of the threads without DEV tags in the F&I forums, hell even some with the tags) are pie in the sky type thinking without any caution or understanding of the past or of human nature. Good , sound progress comes from needs, not wants, and 'I want better pve' or 'I want more people to play EVE' aren't needs.


Quote:
i don't care about which people around me are willing to put up with a poor user experience or poor support. i care about who wants to play my spaceships game. there's no indication that anyone who leaves due to poor support is someone who wouldn't like the game or who the community wouldn't want to play with.


It's not poor support. It's sandbox-style hands off Laissez-faire support. If a grown (or at least, over 12 lol) person can't be bothered to seek out the information they need (via people in the game or the easily accessible internet that they are also playing the game through) to make for themselves an enjoyable experience (like we've done for the last 11 years) then IMO they don't deserve the rewards to be had. It's the EVE way of life and I for one support it.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#675 - 2014-05-22 15:44:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


There is a guy in my alliance who specializes in killing Tornados with exploration frigates.


I like to launch Scorch Bombs into Nullsec gate camps because its funny

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#676 - 2014-05-22 15:52:08 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


There is a guy in my alliance who specializes in killing Tornados with exploration frigates.


I like to launch Scorch Bombs into Nullsec gate camps because its funny


Never not bomb blues.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#677 - 2014-05-22 15:55:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


There is a guy in my alliance who specializes in killing Tornados with exploration frigates.


I like to launch Scorch Bombs into Nullsec gate camps because its funny


Never not bomb


ftfy

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#678 - 2014-05-22 16:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


The two are different things. That's not a fair fight, but skillpoints aren't everything. They are not the defining factor in success in EVE.



I would actually say it was a pretty fair fight. If we were talking about some steel-cage match scenario where we're forcing some 90 lb weaklings to face off against some huge frickin' serial crusher then, yeah, it wouldn't be "fair"....

...but we're not. They had the freedom to engage or not engage. They chose to engage, which was definitely a poor decision given the ships and fits that were involved, but does poor decision making equate to "unfair"?

At what point did it actually become "unfair"?

When everyone undocked and the other guy was in a "better" ship?
When everyone got in the same system?
When they chose to engage their opponent on terms that were HIGHLY favorable to said opponent?

If they had shown up with some kiting condors, they could have very realistically killed the guy. Would it still be an "unfair" fight at that point? What does a "fair" fight even look like? A neck-and-neck race to the bottom of each other's EHP until one guy gets that last shot in first and wins the day?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#679 - 2014-05-22 16:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There is a guy in my alliance who specializes in killing Tornados with exploration frigates.
Marlona Sky specialises in killing everything, with haulers Shocked. Ventures are amusing as hell for killing stuff with too.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#680 - 2014-05-22 16:03:11 UTC
Nerf Jump Sniping

Crap wrong forum/game/decade

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann