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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#641 - 2014-05-22 14:37:30 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


I can agree with that, but new players can't exactly rise to the top, the longer you wait to play EVE the weaker your character is compared to everyone else who have started before you, knowledge of the game aside.


'Catching up' to older players is traditional MMO nonsense. EVE isn't about that. I (via my pvp character) started in 2007, he can NEVER 'catch up to the 2003-4-5-6 player (especially since I stopped training him for months at a time to train other characters on that account). Means squat here, the problem is that players from other MMOs don't ever understand that.

Games cater to personalities. Standard MMOs cater to people who want to feel 'rewarded' just for playing such as with skills increasing from use or leveling (and level caps that means you can eventually "catch up" to others at least in raw avatar properties).

EVE does none of that crap, and that's why most hate it and some love it. It's aimed at the personality types that don't care about the same things standard mmo types would like. It's aimed at creative people, self starters, independent mind folk, highly Social types who want to have an effect on others and of course more types than could be mentioned here.

While some of you might not understand it, some of what you think would be a 'cool idea' for the game that would help retention or whatever would actually undermine it. More in game info (for example) means less need to talk to people or seek out information from other sources. "Pvp like' pve doesn't just act as a trainer for pvp, but could act as a 'replacement' for it, resulting in less overall person to person interaction. Ect ect ect.
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#642 - 2014-05-22 14:39:03 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:
If you're into classic MMO PVE content then chances are that EVE is simply not the game for you. This is a PVP game - any and all activities are either a PVP activity or a means-to-an-end to improve your chances in your next PVP encounter (such as PVE missions).


While I largely agree with your general point of view, I think this statement significantly underplays the importance of PvE even for those who PvP (it supplies all their resources and many of their PvP targets), and it is also rather dismissive of anyone whose playstyle is primarily PvE.

Eve is neither a PvP nor PvE game. It is a sandbox game that supports multiple playstyles.

It could be argued that the PvP is what gives Eve it's cache, therefore PvP is more important than PvE.

But equally it can be pointed out that PvE is where all the resources come from so even if you want to mainly PvP you still have to PvE to afford it, therefore (arguably) PvP is somewhat optional while PvE is pretty much required. Various statistics have been released over the years demonstrating that there are far more people doing PvE than PvP, and that there are far more PvE kills than PvP kills (you can also see this just by checking the map).

So if the PvP is optional while the PvE is (to a certain extent) required, the PvE is the source of most resources used for PvP, and there is far more PvE being done than PvP, then how can it make any sense at all to suggest that Eve is all about PvP?

The whole discussion is dancing on the head of a pin. It should be pretty obvious to all that given how the Eve economy works, while we might all like to PvP and not have to do any PvE at all, PvE is nevertheless an essential part of the game.

So given that PvE is an essential part of the game, the only question is should the PvE be improved to be as good as it can be, or should it be left to rot?

And by 'good' that categorically does not mean spoon fed rows of dumb 'x'es handed out by hisec mission agents, but something more challenging, harder to find, and that increases the potential for emergent and cooperative play, (play that can then be preyed upon by those who've already done their PvE for the day and who are now PvPing).
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#643 - 2014-05-22 14:41:24 UTC
I want more RP content

MOAR CHAIRS

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#644 - 2014-05-22 14:42:06 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


Why?

I mean, apart from to experience the awesome that was a three-engined Curse


Well, a master of frigates isn't really as good as a master of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battleships, capital ships, mining barges, industry while being a titan pilot for CFC.

When I see the 130mil+ SP characters being traded on the bazaar, 16 times the amount I have, I get a bit envious and accept the fact that this character is never going to be up to the standard of 2004s.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#645 - 2014-05-22 14:46:21 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:


Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


Why?

I mean, apart from to experience the awesome that was a three-engined Curse


Well, a master of frigates isn't really as good as a master of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battleships, capital ships, mining barges, industry while being a titan pilot for CFC.

When I see the 130mil+ SP characters being traded on the bazaar, 16 times the amount I have, I get a bit envious and accept the fact that this character is never going to be up to the standard of 2004s.


How many ships do you want to fly at once?

You do realise most people train multiple toons/accounts right?

And these ----> battleships, capital ships

Garbage

Waste of SPs if you arent in a big alliance

mining barges? Proc and t2 tank is all you need.

"industry while being a titan pilot for CFC." This is a lie. No one puts their titan pilot in a Badger.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#646 - 2014-05-22 14:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Turdas Tundra
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:
[quote=Ramona McCandless][quote=Turdas Tundra]

Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


"industry while being a titan pilot for CFC." This is a lie. No one puts their titan pilot in a Badger.


If they had 130mil SP, I think they could if they theoretically wanted to.

And I'm pretty sure Battleships are quite useful in L4 missions, otherwise i've wasted an asston of training time.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#647 - 2014-05-22 14:50:58 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:
[quote=Ramona McCandless][quote=Turdas Tundra]

Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


"industry while being a titan pilot for CFC." This is a lie. No one puts their titan pilot in a Badger.


If they had 130mil SP, I think they could if they theoretically wanted to.


They could but that would be a totally and utterly stupid thing to even contemplate doing

Titans are also garbage unless you are in a Nulliance, of course

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#648 - 2014-05-22 14:54:39 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
[quote=Turdas Tundra][quote=Ramona McCandless]

"industry while being a titan pilot for CFC." This is a lie. No one puts their titan pilot in a Badger.


If they had 130mil SP, I think they could if they theoretically wanted to.


They could but that would be a totally and utterly stupid thing to even contemplate doing

Titans are also garbage unless you are in a Nulliance, of course


Well I'm talking theoretically here, of course if you were a titan pilot you would have the resources to be able to fund 85 alts at the same time.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#649 - 2014-05-22 14:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Turdas Tundra wrote:

I can't see a reason for exp players using a T1 other than the fact they cost nothing.



Yeah, that's a failure of your imagination, and not the game. There are a TON of really good reasons to use a T1 frigate as a veteran. Just a few:

-They're not scary looking, which yields more pewpew. If I roll up with a "dangerous" ship that they don't think they can beat, they'll just warp away. I need something that can beat them, but can also convince them that they're the one with the advantage. T1 frigates do this swimmingly, because somehow, a couple of years after they became AMAZING, there are still people dumb enough to think they're "bad". This leads into...

-Comedy factor. Blowing up AFs and navy frigs with a rocket breacher is FUNNY.

-Personally, I find them more fun than AFs. They're quicker and a bit more agile, but they're not quite so frenetic as interceptor combat. They're a good mix of speed, hitting power, and diversity that I rather like.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#650 - 2014-05-22 15:01:21 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

I can't see a reason for exp players using a T1 other than the fact they cost nothing.



Yeah, that's a failure of your imagination, and not the game. There are a TON of really good reasons to use a T1 frigate as a veteran. Just a few:

-They're not scary looking, which yields more pewpew. If I roll up with a "dangerous" ship that they don't think they can beat, they'll just warp away. I need something that can beat them, but can also convince them that they're the one with the advantage.

-Comedy factor. Blowing up AFs and navy frigs with a rocket breacher is FUNNY.

-Personally, I find them more fun than AFs. They're quicker and a bit more agile, but they're not quite so frenetic as interceptor combat. They're a good mix of speed, hitting power, and diversity that I rather like.



Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked

But I see what you mean, but it isn't the ship talking here, it is your SP and experience.

AFs terrify me.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#651 - 2014-05-22 15:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Turdas Tundra wrote:
When I see the 130mil+ SP characters being traded on the bazaar, 16 times the amount I have, I get a bit envious and accept the fact that this character is never going to be up to the standard of 2004s.
90% of those 130M SP are irrelevant to any particular ship. For example BS V is no use if you're in a frigate and vice versa. This particular character is sitting at about 35M SP, yet if I put it up against my 4M SP alt in a fight it'd probably lose, especially if this character is flying anything sub BC; primarily because his small ship skills are mediocre, whereas my alt is specialised for small ships.

All the extra SP does is give you choice, and expensive clones.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#652 - 2014-05-22 15:02:15 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:
[quote=Ramona McCandless][quote=Turdas Tundra]

Let's just say I wish I started playing EVE in 2004.


"industry while being a titan pilot for CFC." This is a lie. No one puts their titan pilot in a Badger.


If they had 130mil SP, I think they could if they theoretically wanted to.

And I'm pretty sure Battleships are quite useful in L4 missions, otherwise i've wasted an asston of training time.


Not as useful as a pair of half-well trained Battlecruisers, to be honest.

And no, its not a waste. You are well on your way to Black Ops, one of the single most useful ships your corp will ever field

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#653 - 2014-05-22 15:03:43 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked



No, because they erroneously believe it's ****. This is not the same thing as it actually BEING ****. Basically, I like to exploit precisely the kind of ignorant beliefs held by people like you.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#654 - 2014-05-22 15:04:13 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked

But I see what you mean, but it isn't the ship talking here, it is your SP and experience.

AFs terrify me.


Within a week you can put 2 Warp jammer points, a web and a MWD on any frigate

Next time you get caught by a gate camp you wont be laughing at that Kestrel then

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#655 - 2014-05-22 15:06:52 UTC
Jenn aside wrote:
EVE has survived this long with damn near no internal documentation of a lot of things and with crappy attempts at tutorials
this doesn't prohibit improvement of the system.
Quote:
This is a good thing because it means that most of the people playing or of a quality that can handle having to look outside the game or talk to real people to get anywhere.
i don't care about which people around me are willing to put up with a poor user experience or poor support. i care about who wants to play my spaceships game. there's no indication that anyone who leaves due to poor support is someone who wouldn't like the game or who the community wouldn't want to play with.
Turdas Tundra
Byzantium Corporation
#656 - 2014-05-22 15:08:52 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked

But I see what you mean, but it isn't the ship talking here, it is your SP and experience.

AFs terrify me.


Within a week you can put 2 Warp jammer points, a web and a MWD on any frigate

Next time you get caught by a gate camp you wont be laughing at that Kestrel then


It's funny, when I first said to myself, man these SP and tech 2 equipments for my frigate aren't so great, I should be fine with, as you said, 2 scrams a web and a MWD/AB, it's just mini-maxing.

Then I got 2 of my friends and we got 3v1'd by a high SP assault frig.

Then I saw the difference between a "week" frigate and a rank 5 mastery and I realised I was totally naive.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#657 - 2014-05-22 15:11:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
"Pvp like' pve doesn't just act as a trainer for pvp, but could act as a 'replacement' for it, resulting in less overall person to person interaction. Ect ect ect.

yeh. i don't believe pvp-like pve'd be proper prep for playing against someone real. i'm interested in pve where a pvp fit is viable, though, which i believe'd improve the metagame

jump in a site, murder the bear inside, do it for them in the same ship. staying inside a site when you see someone coming 'cos you think you can beat them in a fight. etc
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#658 - 2014-05-22 15:11:38 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Turdas Tundra wrote:

Uhhh... Your reasons to use a T1 frigate is essentially because people won't take a T1 seriously (because of being ****?) and there's amusement when you blow up a good ship with a ****** one. Shocked

But I see what you mean, but it isn't the ship talking here, it is your SP and experience.

AFs terrify me.


Within a week you can put 2 Warp jammer points, a web and a MWD on any frigate

Next time you get caught by a gate camp you wont be laughing at that Kestrel then


It's funny, when I first said to myself, man these SP and tech 2 equipments for my frigate aren't so great, I should be fine with, as you said, 2 scrams a web and a MWD/AB, it's just mini-maxing.

Then I got 2 of my friends and we got 3v1'd by a high SP assault frig.

Then I saw the difference between a "week" frigate and a rank 5 mastery and I realised I was totally naive.


Oh, well if a group of scrubs got blown up by one guy who knew what he was doing, I guess you're definitely right, T1 frigs are crap, and I should stop using them at once. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#659 - 2014-05-22 15:12:07 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aside wrote:
EVE has survived this long with damn near no internal documentation of a lot of things and with crappy attempts at tutorials
this doesn't prohibit improvement of the system.
Quote:
This is a good thing because it means that most of the people playing or of a quality that can handle having to look outside the game or talk to real people to get anywhere.
i don't care about which people around me are willing to put up with a poor user experience or poor support. i care about who wants to play my spaceships game. there's no indication that anyone who leaves due to poor support is someone who wouldn't like the game or who the community wouldn't want to play with.


I will have to grand you your point

Id would like to say this though; EvE is far far better documented and supported in ever direction (even in-game) than the single player X Universe still is, even after more than a decade in service.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#660 - 2014-05-22 15:14:15 UTC
Turdas Tundra wrote:


It's funny, when I first said to myself, man these SP and tech 2 equipments for my frigate aren't so great, I should be fine with, as you said, 2 scrams a web and a MWD/AB, it's just mini-maxing.

Then I got 2 of my friends and we got 3v1'd by a high SP assault frig.

Then I saw the difference between a "week" frigate and a rank 5 mastery and I realised I was totally naive.


But your incident is only half the story

Did he get the drop on you? Were your frigates built to specificallly work together? Were you using appropriate ammo? When it because clear you werent going to break his tank, what was your disengaging strategy?

I could ask many many more questions, but all of them will have no bearing on skill points held by either side

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann