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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Author
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2261 - 2014-05-22 11:12:09 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dareth Astrar wrote:

People spend their time in a game to play the fun parts, not be bored. Less shopping hastle, more getting back to what we want to do is WHY Jita is the place to go.

Until every local trade hub supplies the vast range (impractical based on likely sales) and at a competitive price, they won't realistically succeed at establishing themselves as a viable and practical alternative.



Any pilot that needs to fit a ship and is near amarr and just travels extra 10 jumps to jita to save 3 mil on the total cost of their ship is really not smart.


Amarr and dodixie are prefeclty fine for 98% of the aquisitions any player will need. Jita only speciall place is in massed buy and sell orders for market pvp and massive resources trading.


Depends what they need. I would not go as far as claim that it's 98% - as if the local market is short just the right mod you need you will pay that 3 extra mil AND travel to Jita for that last mod. Even for stuff like standard doctrine stuff - like, for example Triangel Scimi which uses few deadspace medium shield transfers.

Jita is just the place where you know that if it's for sale you will get it instead of figuring out first if your full shopping list is available before you start shopping and end up going to Jita regardless.

For standard T2 fit the four hubs are usually ok, although even for that you can pay something through the nose for more niche things - like, for example, Heavy T2 logi drones or "common" faction items like republic/domination points, etc. Smaller hubs just fluctuate more. Amarr, as the second largest hub is still more or less fine ofc, been a while since I have lived south and used it though.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2262 - 2014-05-22 11:27:50 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
is it intended that the JFs won't be able to put on a single T2 CPR?


No one uses T2, they are useless. Beta's take 3 CPU, offer the same cap recharge bonus and one percent less shield boost penalty AND are usually cheaper. So you can fit one beta CPR on JF as long as the other two slots do not take any CPU.



Betas, with max skill, take 2.25 CPU.

The CPU is also boosted by 25% due to skills, to 6.25.

Type E CPRs take 1 CPU, granted, they only give 10%, but you could fit 2 betas, and 1 Type E (or other meta Basic CPR)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2263 - 2014-05-22 11:29:46 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:

I'll give you a couple of reasons why capitals should stay out of highsec and I'm not even going to touch supers and titans:
- capital production spam in highsec... we simply don't need that;
- you can't add capitals to highsec without adding their main mean of travel - cynos in highsec. You don't want to open that can of worms;
- Wars in higsec against lower skilled/newer characters... I was looking for the appropriate term and Urban dictionary told me "roflstomped"Shocked.
- Remote SB/TE Naglfars somewhere in a general area of a station where war targets are Ugh;
- Fighters in higsec *cringe*;
- ...


* The supers are much much larger than regular non-assembled caps and could not be moved. Also - they are by design undockabe as it stands and as such being able to transport supers into station would be significant change indeed.
* You can not produce capitals in hi sec. Being able to transport that would not change it. Otherwise most capitals would be produced in hi sec and would be just jumped out of hi sec (as it used to be once upon a time, that is the reason whi Chribba and other have capitals in hi sec today).
* Sure you can. Cyno's cant be done in hi sec and that does not prevent people going there in other jump capable ships like jump freighters and black ops. They even fixed the exploit where you were able to escape concord by jumping out of hi sec through cyno in low/null.
* Noobs get rolfstomped without caps in hi sec all day long already if going up against veterans. T2 logi ships, establised doctrines, flying pirate battleships .. etc ... so in that regard caps would not change the landscape by any significant degree.
* Sieged dread can not be remote boosted and its lock time is loooooong. Wirthout siege the dread is pretty much useless doing only approx 1/3 rd of the gank battleship damage. So I really really would not worry about dreads camping someone in sub cap in. Now if someone is playing the station games in a carrier agressing at station then ... I would indeed expect to see some dreads stuck on that station for the duration of their siege cykle. Unsupported sieged dreads die btw real fast if you neut them dry. So combat as expected.
* I do not understand what would be the problem exactly with fighters in hi sec. They lose the carrier bonuses when assigned to other people so they suck badly for pve unless directly controlled by a carrier, can be killed if one needs to and carriers can't already use any gates in missions so using a carrier in a mission would be possible only in select few missions - and they are less effective at that than a pimped pirate BS at roughly similar cost.

Although we are drifting off topic in here. I just honestly do not believe regular capitals would be a problem in hi sec in todays EVE. On the other hand I'm not particularly caring if they can or can not enter hi sec as other than few very select niche cases I do not see much use for them in hi sec. The being mainly station games, shooting POCO's / POS'es with fewer people and poviding leadership bonuses and - one important factor why ORCA was nerfed - theyr ship maintenance bay would allow criminals to ignore their sec status by just grabbing gank catalysts from a carrier.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Maru Niffilen
United Trading Organisation
#2264 - 2014-05-22 11:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maru Niffilen
Imagine Freighter with the classic high-mid-low slot layout. They could become more popular in nullsec. Thanks to cyno, WCS, more Tank and so on.
Skytle DblooD
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2265 - 2014-05-22 11:38:26 UTC
If the JF's now use 50% more fuel will the fuel bay be made bigger to accommodate more fuel or do we have to use some of our reduced cargo space to carry fuel aswell?
Oxide Ammar
#2266 - 2014-05-22 11:43:42 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:

- Wars in higsec against lower skilled/newer characters... I was looking for the appropriate term and Urban dictionary told me "roflstomped"Shocked


This is the most hilarious reason for not bringing capitals to hisec, you don't need capitals to roflstomp low skilled players.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2267 - 2014-05-22 11:45:29 UTC
Skytle DblooD wrote:
If the JF's now use 50% more fuel will the fuel bay be made bigger to accommodate more fuel


Yes.

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2268 - 2014-05-22 11:47:38 UTC
Skytle DblooD wrote:
If the JF's now use 50% more fuel will the fuel bay be made bigger to accommodate more fuel or do we have to use some of our reduced cargo space to carry fuel aswell?



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=340420&find=unread

Quote:
To compensate for the extra isotopes that ships will need to carry, the volume of all four isotopes will be reduced by 1/3, to 0.1m3

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Korean Ninja
I Shall Watch Over You
#2269 - 2014-05-22 11:56:43 UTC
give us low-slot shield tanking module
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2270 - 2014-05-22 12:06:41 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
See… there was a reason why I was against rigs on freighters from the very start… Straight

T2 capital rigs and a significant reduction in survivability requried and/or speed to get them back to where they were. Gee thanks.


T1 rigs are easily enough to bring normal freighters above their current cargo values.
Quote:
All Freighters and Jump Freighters will receive 3 low slots, and not receive any rig slots.
Sorry but I am a little confused. In your reply to Tippia, you say T1 rigs, yet the description states (twice) that freighters and Jump Freighters will not receive Rig Slots.
Could someone clarify which statement is true, as both statements are from the same Dev and one contradicts the other..
Are they getting rigs or not?


What is there to clarify? Originally, freighters were supposed to get rigs. Now they get low slots instead.

The reason for my question was because the comment about T1 rigs was made "in this thread".
Sort of fits with the confusion in the Drone Blog - It states 1 thing but the forum says something to the contrary.
Never hurts to have things clarified - especially when both comments are on the same page in the same thread.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Vivianne Athonille
WHolely Unacceptable
#2271 - 2014-05-22 12:12:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This means that Freighters can get significantly higher maximum capacity than before using modules, and we're increasing the volume of packaged capital ships (to 1.3 million m3) and unpackaged station containers (to 2 million m3) to compensate.


I would like to suggest that you consider either leaving the packaged size of Freighters and JFs alone or better yet reduce them to 800K m3 or lower.


  1. Freighters and JFs are non-aggressive capital ships already allowed in high-sec
  2. You could eliminate some of the serious questions raised in the Contracts thread around getting Freighters and JFs to market, as they could be hauled in existing courier contracts. No need for the devs to even consider Contract changes just to solve this one problem.


You have an opportunity here that you might not want to pass up.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2272 - 2014-05-22 12:26:34 UTC
Dareth Astrar wrote:

Silvetica Dian wrote:

Also i read the stuff written by Dareth and got the impression that he was a very poor industrialist.
His description of huge effort for low profits amused me greatly and is the exact opposite of how i do industry.


Very nice to have opinions. May I ask what you base that on? I can base my proofs on cold hard maths, not that CCP listen that much to it.

As I have stated before, most people involved in industrial effort (or what they call of it) cannot arrive at an accurate calculation of cost. I'm sure I will hear lots of people shout, but I can and am willing to prove my statements with figures, but you may be surprised how long the proofs can be.

I and my team have made many billions in actual true profit in the game, before continual price depreciation and constant market entropy became massively significant factors that we stropped wasting our time. I know there are items out there which are still profitable, some T2 ones, but most T1 items (which is where new entries to market are) are not profitable, and ironically the larger you go the bigger the investment, the greater profit you believe people would insist upon. Unfortunately, that is just plain incorrect as an assumption (and we all know what phrases are out there warning us about assumptions).

I did the maths last night, on a previously truely industrial involvement with investors that we took part in. I updated the figures last night using the Jita buy prices for Minerals, and based on the CURRENT Sell prices of the eventual items in Jita (invalid assumptions, as fails to account for speed of depreciation in eve of both source materials pricing and sales achievable prices).


These figures even have factory production associated and all other market related costs included:

Final Sales Cost Profit / Unit Margin Profit / Factory Hour
Charon: 1,290,823,860.50 79,176,139.50 6.133% 2,778.93
Orca: 623,146,338.65 15,733,661.20 2.525% 1,104.86


Total Profit / Batch: 267,980,073.85

Batches to Recover Investment: > 2,000
Time to Recover Investment: > 37,295 days!

BEFORE you have recovered the investment costs, you have made no actual profit!! Simple business fact.


Reader Tasks:
Now I will leave you Add Real haulage costs both ways, and the increase for increased quantities of hauling and recalculate your impact on profit etc.


]


so i was correct.
You were making low margin high effort stuff involving massive amounts of hauling.
When i started my industrial alt about a year ago i was making t1 only for a profit of about 750 mill/week with about 40 mins a day off effort. It is now north of a billion /week as i can build T2 stuff. Manufacturing is the most profitable thing i have done in eve and i have done most activities.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Theng Hofses
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2273 - 2014-05-22 12:39:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
addelee wrote:

JF's are having their fuel usage increase by 50% in kronos.


This is not correct. The fuel change is currently scheduled for Crius.


While you are increasing jump fuel consumption could you also look at the different jump freighter fuel consumption numbers of the different races/jump freighters?
Victor Dathar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#2274 - 2014-05-22 12:47:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Eh... hate to say it, but who cares if it's harder to gank a freighter in high-sec anymore? If we're going to be able to build player star gates, then we're probably going to need a huge (and reliable) industrial and *logistics* base with which to do it. The concerns of the builders is going to outweigh the concerns of the anarchists.

To put it simply, suicide ganking freighters is small time banditry. The real goal in attacking freighters is to disrupt another alliance from building their stargate first. That's where the real money/action/impetus will be, IMHO.

My apologies for sounding a bit harsh and dismissive of your concerns, but freighters haven't had any meaningful ways of adapting their freighters to the environment except by CCP Fiat. Now they finally get a buff and some options.

tl;dr - A Commerce Raiding release will happen. No more ganking. It's time for real war.


Guuuuyyysssssss these people do something I don't like so that means it is not important and I don't care if these poopy heads can't have their fun any more.

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2275 - 2014-05-22 12:59:59 UTC
I'm fairly certain I would have erected a research tower and tried a bit of industry with a Capital Cargohold BPO, exploring things like research, invention, production. I'm just guessing it would have impacted rig market and the economy a bit much. cuz I doubt it was reverted for the sake of player feels.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2276 - 2014-05-22 13:07:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Querns wrote:
Oh -- I think I answered my own question. The JF agility adjustment is meant to compensate for the potential for rigging the Jump Freighter for agility.

My question then becomes "do you think that there is a compelling reason for anyone, ever, to rig for agility?" Jump freighter usage is all about cargo, cargo, cargo.
I will, if I keep it (which is questionable).

I picked a JF over a normal freighter for highsec use because it offered higher survivability and faster movement. The higher cargo was pointless since that just made it more worth-while to attack, and I wanted that improved survivability and movement exactly to avoid that problem.

Why not rig it for warp speed, instead? You spend a lot more time in warp then you do aligning.

Regarding the safety angle, rigging for hull HP is going to be a lot more effective at safeguarding you than align. Any serious freighter suicide ganker utilizes suicide newbie ships with a point to shut off your warp and stop your align before initiating a bump. Your align time won't be particularly useful in saving you when your align is already terrible (pre- and post-change.)

+1 This guy, he must fly a freighter.
Majin Shouten
Ronin Research and Manufacturing
#2277 - 2014-05-22 13:27:29 UTC
My only concern is this: why is there absolutely no variation in between racial freighter variants? Same boni all around. The only choice between them is the optics.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2278 - 2014-05-22 13:27:35 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
Pensador wrote:
Thank God. For years all of we were expecting that.
Maybe this is the end of Ganking freighters
in high sec

That will never end. But it will raise the safe for transport value of goods. And that is a good thing.


safety is not good in eve. Saftey promotes complacency. Risk rewards effort.

u want things to be difficult because u want to be rewarded for ur efforts and risk. U want ur competition to lose out because they are lazy and/or died in a fire.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Grumpy Poster
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2279 - 2014-05-22 13:27:37 UTC
Customization by righs would be to prevent choices which give more possibilities compared to the status quo.

Let's take agility, hp and cargo as base points.

Rigging for agility should hit hp and cargo, rigging for cargo should hit hp and agility and of course rigging for hp should hit cargo and agility. So you have choices to take for certain purposes while the baseline (unrigged) should stay more or less the same as it is.

With the proposed changes only risk gets raised while there is no added real benefit. The potential benefit of getting more money for transport jobs will easily be eaten up by only one ship loss. And one medium term consequence will very probably be overall inflation anyway. Intended consequence?

And real life shows that markts do not diversify just because it is more expensive to get to the superstore. No local market will ever come near the reach and volume of the trade hubs and so it will still be better for most purposes to use the trade hubs and just raise prices.

In the long run it is also another blow agains single / small corp players since the large alliances and blocks will have a much easier time to mitigate any consquences of both transport nerf and industry changes whereas small enterprises will have a hard time. It will in no way lead to a more diverse or interesting 0.0 though but just furthers concentration even more.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2280 - 2014-05-22 13:38:34 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:

so i was correct.
You were making low margin high effort stuff involving massive amounts of hauling.
When i started my industrial alt about a year ago i was making t1 only for a profit of about 750 mill/week with about 40 mins a day off effort. It is now north of a billion /week as i can build T2 stuff. Manufacturing is the most profitable thing i have done in eve and i have done most activities.

Sorry to tell you but your T2 production costs may take a bit of a hit soon.

Fit anything other than Cargo Expanders to a JF, you end up with around half your current cargo capacity.

Should JF pilots have to take a 50% hit on earnings in what are the 3rd most expensive class of ships in the game?

To maintain current standards, why should a JF pilot have to face the extra risks - Mishmash defenses, longer align times

Should those wanting to kill JF have easier kills handed to them due to a Devs ill conceived idea of "interesting fitting choices"

A question for the OP regarding the resists on the Rhea;
Current base shield resist; EM 0 / Therm 28 / Kin 40 / Exp 50
Quote:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 40(+20) / 47.5(+7.5) / 50

Signature Radius Current; 2928
Proposed ; 2930 -2

Possibly simple typos but as they are all through the stats it would be nice to know if the Rhea is in fact getting 28+20 = 48 thermal resist, or 28 +12 = 40.
Is the Sig Radius going down to 2926 or up to 2930.
Maybe someone could go through the resists on all the JF and correct errors - If for no other reason, than to at least make it look professional, let alone giving players correct information

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.