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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#2041 - 2014-05-21 18:18:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
How did you calculate your tanks? The base ehp seems rather high?

Sum of base shield/armour/hull HP × skill bonuses × ¼ of ∑ 1/(1-resist)

Brib Vogt wrote:
No it is not.
Yes it is, unless you start slapping deadspace or officer resists on them.

3× 15% resist bonus = ~48% more EHP on armour
3× 25% HP bonus = ~95% more EHP on hull.

In just one case will armour EHP be more than hull EHP, and even then, the difference in EHP increase makes quick work of that tiny gap.


ahh ok now i got it. You're doubling the effect of the resists. a 50% resist for example in your equation would give a 100% bonus to hp.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2042 - 2014-05-21 18:18:59 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Querns wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:

I can understand the bulkhead change but why stripping the cargo capacity from the start. And why giving them such limited fitting possibilities.

They have to reduce the cargo so that when people fit expanded cargoholds, the amount of cargo that freighters can carry does not explode out of control. It's the price you pay for customizability.


but why adding another cargo penalty on tanky fits?


Because they are trade-off.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2043 - 2014-05-21 18:19:09 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Providence: 350k EHP + 383k m³
Ark: 577k EHP(!) + 118k m³

Any of these strike your fancy? Blink

Oh trust me, they do!

Until I see *Final* numbers and on TQ, I'm not changing any skillque...

Pff. What's this “being sensible” stuff you're doing. Getoutahere! Lol


On a more serious note, these are the base tank stats I'm calculating from. Can anyone check to see if I've missed something because it doesn't seem like it… These are the base stats from the OP, and the effective EHP for each tier includes skills at V (so +25% from Mechanics, Hull Upgrades, and Shield Mgt, and +50% for the JFs).


How are you calculating the sehp and aehp? those seem really off. Below was my ehp for each of the 4 damage types for the shield of the fenrir.

em 48000
therm 57600
kin 67200
exp 72000

edit: these were calculated with the following equation ehp = base+[base * (resist/100)]

EHP = base / (1 - Resist Percent)
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#2044 - 2014-05-21 18:22:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Querns wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:

I can understand the bulkhead change but why stripping the cargo capacity from the start. And why giving them such limited fitting possibilities.

They have to reduce the cargo so that when people fit expanded cargoholds, the amount of cargo that freighters can carry does not explode out of control. It's the price you pay for customizability.


but why adding another cargo penalty on tanky fits?


Because they are trade-off.


But why is the maximum velocity modifier of -11% replaced with -10% cargo capacity. Thats my whole point
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2045 - 2014-05-21 18:23:25 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
How did you calculate your tanks? The base ehp seems rather high?

Sum of base shield/armour/hull HP × skill bonuses × ¼ of ∑ 1/(1-resist)

Brib Vogt wrote:
No it is not.
Yes it is, unless you start slapping deadspace or officer resists on them.

3× 15% resist bonus = ~48% more EHP on armour
3× 25% HP bonus = ~95% more EHP on hull.

In just one case will armour EHP be more than hull EHP, and even then, the difference in EHP increase makes quick work of that tiny gap.


your numbers are correct. but "Use bulkheads for better results in any case." is still not true because you would end up in -30% cargo capacity for a freighter!


If you want the ebst tank, it will still be true unless you don't mind slapping billions worth of tanking module on your space truck. If you go with more decently priced armor tank mods, it will be again a trade-off between less tank than bulkheads for more cargo space.

The best tank will be bulkheads. The best compromise for what you want will depends on what you want.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2046 - 2014-05-21 18:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
How are you calculating the sehp and aehp? those seem really off. Below was my ehp for each of the 4 damage types for the shield of the fenrir.

em 48000
therm 57600
kin 67200
exp 72000

edit: these were calculated with the following equation ehp = base+[base * (resist/100)]

EHP = base / (1 - Resist Percent)

That too. I just noticed the first mismatch without the skills.

48,000 @ 0%   = 48,000 / (1-0.0) = 48,000 base EM EHP
48,000 @ 50% = 48,000 / (1-0.5) = 96,000 base Ex EHP
48,000 @ 40% = 48,000 / (1-0.4) = 80,000 base Kn EHP
48,000 @ 20% = 48,000 / (1-0.2) = 60,000 base Th EHP

An average of (284k / 4 =) 71k base EHP, ×1.25 skill bonus = 88.75k EHP

e: e: e: wtf, fiddly little tables. Lol

Brib Vogt wrote:
But why is the maximum velocity modifier of -11% replaced with -10% cargo capacity. Thats my whole point.
It'll be a -11% capacity, actually. And the reason is the same: because it's a trade-off, and because it mirrors the trade you're making with cargo expanders.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2047 - 2014-05-21 18:24:16 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
addelee wrote:

JF's are having their fuel usage increase by 50% in kronos.


This is not correct. The fuel change is currently scheduled for Crius.


Makes no odd's when you bring it in, it is just plain wrong headed for the so many reasons already mentioned in this thread, and how far you missed the mark as to how risk averse JF pilots are for the most part. Anything that detracts from logistics in this manner, from increased fuel costs to decreased cargo capacity will not get you what you want in terms of Null Sec industry expansion, taking into account all the other changes your proposing and have already slipped into game no one if they take the time to look at it as an overall picture of Null Sec operations will see all of this as anything other than one massive nerf fest perpetrated and spun off as being good for the game when in reality it's simple an attempt by the PvP lobby to turn Null Sec into a facsimile of Empire stupidity.

Were the thought came from that these things are used in fleets to provide defense I have no idea, again another one of those 'I thought it so it must be so', ideas, freighters rarely move in fleets defensive or otherwise, draws attention see...not good. suggest you study how it's done and ask why Null Sec Alliances do it that way, they are not in the business of allowing CCP or anyone for that matter to gank valuable ships and cargo no matter how much you might think it's fun to do.

all the other tinsel rubbish tinkering with Jump freighters and freighters is just that simply because if it gets caught it's going to die, make it as agile and as fast as in inty if you like, the results will still be the same, once pinned it's done for. so why bother in the first place, nothing in these changes is good news and overall it smacks of change because you have nothing better to do.

Tackle Sov, take on the PoS monster, PoCo's and PI click fests all items already long flagged as game detractors and stop tinkering with stuff that already works and works well

"Other people are getting shiny toys. Why don't I get what I want?" I geuss that's what you're trying to say, but I really can't tell.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#2048 - 2014-05-21 18:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Arya Regnar wrote:
You can forget about ganking anshars alltogether 670k+ ehp.
They can still carry well over 100k m3 at that ehp.


That person has made the decision to fly a bomb shelter at the expense of pretty much every other consideration. For ~7 billion ISK, they should get a pretty good bomb shelter. They'll still die if caught, it'll just take a damnably long time to kill them.

Put another way, I'm not sure that many jump freighter pilots are going to put up with the extra hassle of a mere 100km3 cargohold just to have a hilariously redundant tank. They're already used to taking measures to avoid getting caught, so they'll fit to the assumption that they're unlikely to get caught.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2049 - 2014-05-21 18:24:32 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:

But why is the maximum velocity modifier of -11% replaced with -10% cargo capacity. Thats my whole point


Because velocity isn't a real penalty on a freighter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#2050 - 2014-05-21 18:24:59 UTC
WTB A nice, freighter-specific Damage Control module next! Bear

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2051 - 2014-05-21 18:26:17 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Querns wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:

I can understand the bulkhead change but why stripping the cargo capacity from the start. And why giving them such limited fitting possibilities.

They have to reduce the cargo so that when people fit expanded cargoholds, the amount of cargo that freighters can carry does not explode out of control. It's the price you pay for customizability.


but why adding another cargo penalty on tanky fits?


Because they are trade-off.


But why is the maximum velocity modifier of -11% replaced with -10% cargo capacity. Thats my whole point


Most likely because velocity on a spacetruck is not a trade off. You only really care about reaching 75% so you can GTFO that grid you are on and go to the next one where you land. Nobody really try to speedtank a hauler so the stat cost for cargo was changed to something that also matter to a hauler instead of something they don't care about.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2052 - 2014-05-21 18:28:14 UTC
and we can see that we finally have our orca-freighter gap being filled by the surprise contenders of jump freighters. You want to haul super shiny mods in comfort and style? look no further than your nearest anshar.
Valterra Craven
#2053 - 2014-05-21 18:31:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:

But why is the maximum velocity modifier of -11% replaced with -10% cargo capacity. Thats my whole point


Because velocity isn't a real penalty on a freighter.


That's not technically true. (but this would an extreme example) Lets say you want to afk your freighter with cargo from point a to b. Lets also say that you have a tool that will roughly calculate the amount of time it would take you to afk that distance. You could then set things up in such a way that you could be doing a lot of runs and that would significantly affect your time in the long wrong, especially if you used 3... I could see this mainly affecting people like Red Frog freight if they ran things this way (which they could given all the stipulations they put on you fro cargo value etc)
Blaqe Fonceur
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2054 - 2014-05-21 18:32:53 UTC
Latest update is looking decent, I am a little concerned for the shield based freighters not having access to resist modules like armor based ones.

About reinforced bulkheads, wouldn't removing the CPU cost of the module be a better option than giving a role bonus to freighters. That module is the only one of its kind that requires CPU.
Others that perform similar roles, ie. Nanofiber internal structure, expanded cargohold and overdrive injector, do not use any CPU or grid for that matter.
In my opinion, rather than giving a role bonus to freighters it would be preferable to remove CPU(and grid?)requirements from reinforced bulkheads, making them fit in with the other modules in their category.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#2055 - 2014-05-21 18:32:59 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
You can forget about ganking anshars alltogether 670k+ ehp.
They can still carry well over 100k m3 at that ehp.


That person has made the decision to fly a bomb shelter at the expense of pretty much every other consideration. For ~7 billion ISK, they should get a pretty good bomb shelter. They'll still die if caught, it'll just take a damnably long time to kill them.

Put another way, I'm not sure that many jump freighter pilots are going to put up with the extra hassle of a mere 100km3 cargohold just to have a hilariously redundant tank. They're already used to taking measures to avoid getting caught, so they'll fit to the assumption that they're unlikely to get caught.


Being ungankable should require effort, alt in a daredevil with FN web on heat or something like that.
You can have 674k ehp and be completely afk.

You think having 140k m3 cargo is a tradeoff?
Most freighters/jfs aren't loaded.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2056 - 2014-05-21 18:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
ahh ok now i got it. You're doubling the effect of the resists. a 50% resist for example in your equation would give a 100% bonus to hp.

Weeell… since we're talking about stacking-penalised mods, the maths is like this:

EHP = HP / resonance; Resonance = 1-resist.

15% resist ≡ (1-0.15 =) 85% resonance

Add three of them together and we have a total resonance of:

(1 - 0.15) × (1 - 0.15×0.87) × (1 - 0.15×0.57) = 0.675884 resonance (or 32% resist, if you like).

So the new EHP = 1/0.675884 × old EHP, or 1.48× old EHP — i.e. 3× 15% resists → 48% more EHP.
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2057 - 2014-05-21 18:36:31 UTC
So I see that rigs on freighters and JF been removed, and stats have been updated, and now JF pilots only need a few million ISK to "fix" toward the prenerf levels but...

My head is starting to explode trying to understand all the numbers before, after rig change, and after CSM lobby change.

I'm thinking that while CSM was lobbying you, they had some spreadsheets? Or you have an internal spreadsheet with the hard numbers for each ship in the 3 schemes?

Could we see one of these spreadsheets, suitably sanitized for consumption by us mere mortals?

I'm finding it hard to understand how much the numbers have changed (other than noting the removal of the capital rig costs) without them.

Apologies in advance if I've missed the spreadsheet somewhere in this thread.

--
Fang
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2058 - 2014-05-21 18:37:02 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
You can forget about ganking anshars alltogether 670k+ ehp.
They can still carry well over 100k m3 at that ehp.


That person has made the decision to fly a bomb shelter at the expense of pretty much every other consideration. For ~7 billion ISK, they should get a pretty good bomb shelter. They'll still die if caught, it'll just take a damnably long time to kill them.

Put another way, I'm not sure that many jump freighter pilots are going to put up with the extra hassle of a mere 100km3 cargohold just to have a hilariously redundant tank. They're already used to taking measures to avoid getting caught, so they'll fit to the assumption that they're unlikely to get caught.


Being ungankable should require effort, alt in a daredevil with FN web on heat or something like that.
You can have 674k ehp and be completely afk.

You think having 140k m3 cargo is a tradeoff?
Most freighters/jfs aren't loaded.


Bring more firepower. It's not ungankable.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#2059 - 2014-05-21 18:37:22 UTC
Cool... so I can push the armor tank on a Freighter... But the shield tankers get Shafted.... :P More Power to gallente ships!
Axe Coldon
#2060 - 2014-05-21 18:37:24 UTC
addelee wrote:
Oooooh; I've a nice conspiracy theory that's spawned out of this.
I've just noticed the bonus '-10% jump fuel requirements' for JF's.

So essentially, the fuel changes effect all capital size ships and above except JF's.
If you pick most large scale battles, they've involved these ships and if you also look at said battles, the servers cannot cope and either get hit with 95% TiDi or they just crash. Either way, not good press.
Part of this was the drone problem and this has been fixed in the super cap nerf and drone 'rebalancing'.

But ship numbers are high as well and no one likes to lose titans and supers as they take so long to build due to nullsec bottlenecks and the sheer cost and time of them. So sub-caps turn up to defend their larger brothers/sisters.

If fuel prices are increased, in theory, less jump capable ships will be fielded as it costs that must more to go to war (wars are already expensive). If less caps are being fielded, less large scale war will happen and the less the servers will crash and the less bad press goes out.

Is that what we're attempting to achieve in all this?


Maybe but I can't imagine a 50% increase in fuel cost would deter anyone from bringing their fancy capital. Don't buy the car if you can't afford the gas. Same goes here.

Not all capital pilots get their fuel provided to them. Generally only when they have to refuel along the way because the total distance takes more fuel then they can hold. So I can't see an individual pilot not going to a battle just because he needs more isk for isotopes. He will just rat more (or however he makes isk) between battles.

And we all know the super alliances are filthy rich and won't care the fuel cost...in the cases where they provide the fuel.

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