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Why my friends didn't started to play EVE
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Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#41 - 2014-05-20 18:54:18 UTC
i support this. ive tried to bring in many friends but they wanted to join for the amazing pvp and they cant fly a decent t2 fit for 3 weeks so they just say **** it im not waiting for this crap. every single one of them.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#42 - 2014-05-20 19:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
When I got into Eve, my buddy talked me into trying it, I setup a character and he showed me how to train learning skills. For the next couple weeks I did next to nothing except training learning skills to 4. I followed by training the most basic of core and missile skills while starting the long grind of Level 1 missions.
Since then Eve has added the starter missions, many more tutorials, and there is more content available when you have friends.

However, not everyone starting Eve has RL friends that can help. Not everyone is online at the same time as their RL friends either and, especially early in the game, when your friends aren't on to help you run missions/mine/roam/etc... then Eve turns into a very intimidating beast that is highly geared towards group content.

I think that one thing that might increase retention and new player interest would be increasing the value of Scout level incursions while keeping them accessible to low SP characters. Scouts are very low level incursions, and as most people know incursions tend to be very skill intensive so players want much more of a payout for the time invested in their skills, and the very low payout of Scouts means that not many people bother with them more than once. If new-ish players, who find their friends offline, could gravitate towards new-player, Scout incursion groups it would greatly decrease that early Eve boredom.

Obviously this would not target everyone, it would not appeal to everyone, but it might give the new player content that builds into more lucrative content as well as supporting the "group" feel of Eve.

Just a thought, and I know that you guys are gonna tear it to shreds. Smile

Edited for clarity.
dalishah11
pkpl
#43 - 2014-05-20 19:52:03 UTC
Maybe ccp should give some incentives to corporations for hiring newbies.... It should be accepted that eve is a difficult game... And we all would love it to grow.... There can be a way to make it easy and fun for most new commers rather than just a few stories here and there.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#44 - 2014-05-20 20:08:55 UTC
Alexei Stryker wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Newbies just get PROPER basic skills

I'm not saying give them Broadsword skills , just basic one.


Yes. But they have those already. Its base on your character designation.

I can remember that I was able to tweak which skills I start with. And as I remember correctly one of those skills was already level 5.


New characters start with basically no SP these days. I remember when everyone started with 800k SP and it was horribly unbalanced because starting with int/mem learning skills as starting skills was the best because learning skills were OP. I also remember, after starting a character with optimal skills for long-term training, quitting and restarting with a character that started with useful skills to shoot things so that I could do something interesting on the first day.

Well, they removed learning skills. Can we get back characters starting with 3-500k SP or something based on background again? Give soldier characters actual useful tackle, shooting and prop mod skills off the bat. Give industrial characters the ability to start >1 industrial job. It doesn't have to be much, but at least give characters the equivalent of their first two days of training right now or something. It's not like we have the silliness surrounding learning skills anymore. Heck, that wouldn't even nerf disposable cyno alts: preventing alpha-cloning cyno alts would require starting with 800k or more, because all you really need is Cyno IV. CPU Management is a skill everyone wants anyway.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#45 - 2014-05-20 21:30:23 UTC
Eve is not for everyone. Many of my MMO friends from everquest2, SWTOR, etc just could not get past the fact that they could not play 23/7 and get get past players that play a few days a week. They were use to the hardcore power level style of play.

Gladly Eve does not offer this type of play which is why I am here and not in those other games. Big smile
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#46 - 2014-05-20 22:03:27 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Yes - you are right , but you just stated that someone created content for you.
You found a person that was helping you a lot - not only by advice , but also being with you on the same grid.

I am talking about people that don't will not go this way , or will not get this kind of help.


there are a lot of pilots and corporations that are very friendly to starting players, dont forget we all started from scratch, hell a lot has been improved to start new players:

from top of my head:
  • tutorials
  • implant that gives huge buff on DPS and +3 to all attributes that stacks on top of normal implants, remaps if used with some sense it wil make a new player effective in what he wants most in reasanable time
  • mining frigite so new players can start mining decently pretty fast
  • revamp on prequisities and certificates (frig 3 to go to cruiser instead of lvl 4 etc etc

    • i dont deny that starting out a new character is time consuming to do something realy well, but that doesnt mean someone cant have fun before that.

    [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
    Axe Coldon
    #47 - 2014-05-20 22:17:23 UTC
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    EVE is a game that gives great rewards in exchange for patience and dedication.

    Even 100M SP players may spend days setting up a supercarrier gank.

    If your friends had some free skills, they would probably just get bored and impatient while waiting for the next chunk of skills.

    It's just not the game for them, I think.


    I agree. I have a son. He is impatient. If he can't get to the top level by the end of the month the game sucks and he moves on. He doesn't play eve. Too much work.

    Eve is what it is. It has a loyal following because there are enough people in the world that like a game that takes patience. Its not a grind to get to top level (well eve has no levels) but just time. And you choose your path along the way.

    But its hard to have sympathy for someone that can't even wait a week. Its kind of simple. Start your eve account get one of those newbie skill plans and start that. and then play your other games and come back when you have the skills at the level you want.

    Or join a corp that is newb friendly in eve. I mean the noob ship argument is lame. You can be in a real frigate in a few hours after starting.

    Eve is for Grownups.

    No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #48 - 2014-05-20 22:27:14 UTC
    Digger Pollard wrote:


    First of all, with the current mission AI, you're going to get raped in your frig and especially in dessie. Very fast, practically instant the moment focus switches. We tried to take our newbs in desses to missions and it happened 100% of times.

    SP is a crucial issue of eve. It takes years to achieve basic proficiency in weapon systems. 2 years and my combat alt still cannot get into a marauder - because he lacks SP! Bigger SP blob always wins in pvp, unless he commits a real blunder. So everyone who says SP isn't the issue is entitled to a full shovel of manure in the face from me. Eat some ****, sir.


    no we do it too. noobs run along side us in level 4's. yeah they get targeted, but no they dnt die.

    we pew higher SP players with mixed success, but its fun. the only one spewing bull **** is u.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
    Corraidhin Farsaidh
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #49 - 2014-05-21 08:25:55 UTC
    Digger Pollard wrote:

    Again with this corp manure.

    I like the suggestion. My main is 4 years in the game and still doesn't have some of the mentioned skills, but nobody is forbidding me from redoing the tutorial if I really want, right?

    First of all, with the current mission AI, you're going to get raped in your frig and especially in dessie. Very fast, practically instant the moment focus switches. We tried to take our newbs in desses to missions and it happened 100% of times.

    SP is a crucial issue of eve. It takes years to achieve basic proficiency in weapon systems. 2 years and my combat alt still cannot get into a marauder - because he lacks SP! Bigger SP blob always wins in pvp, unless he commits a real blunder. So everyone who says SP isn't the issue is entitled to a full shovel of manure in the face from me. Eat some ****, sir.


    Odd how you state that my *actual* experiences are manure. If your corpies got 'raped' then they didn't fly their frig/dessie right or your BS pilots didn't give them good advice and/or support. Taking a low sp corpie on missions is simple. Jump the BS in first to draw fire, jump in the corpies in frigs/dessies to deal with the mission frigs/dessies/cruisers. I did this many many times and never lost a ship[. newbie gets targeted? They stay in the fight until at ~50% armour then warp out, repair and come back. Once the frigs/dessies/cruisers are gone you can pretty much spiral in on the BS's and add some dps to the fight. Many time in the algos I drew fire from 5+BS's without issue

    Try taking your newbs on missions *and protect them a bit*. Teach them to pull out when outclassed, to orbit correctly and pick targets correctly. Teach them that sometimes you need to leave a fight and return. It's not virtual rocket science, I'm no great pilot and I worked it out by myself.

    And with that I'm off to fertilize the roses...
    El Geo
    Warcrows
    Sedition.
    #50 - 2014-05-21 11:30:54 UTC
    Eve, for me at least, has pretty much lost it's 'frontier' edge, I'm sure that some people love nothing more than to join a game where they just become a number in some coalition or another but others I expect want to have their own little bit of space or head to the 'frontier' edges of space where they can discover things.

    CDIA Based overlay resource for After Effects 6

    Eve pathfinders Youtube
    Lephia DeGrande
    Luxembourg Space Union
    #51 - 2014-05-21 12:14:46 UTC
    El Geo wrote:
    Eve, for me at least, has pretty much lost it's 'frontier' edge, I'm sure that some people love nothing more than to join a game where they just become a number in some coalition or another but others I expect want to have their own little bit of space or head to the 'frontier' edges of space where they can discover things.


    Thats very true, but atleast with the planed WH changes API some of the comfort Features are gone and WH will feel again more lonely and dangerous.

    Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #52 - 2014-05-21 16:44:46 UTC
    Digger Pollard wrote:
    Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
    My experience of eve is very different to that noted above. I was running level IVmissions alongside a corpmate within 3 days in my incursus, then 2 days later in an algos. He had no need of me beyond company but I did make the missions run faster by dealing with the frigate/dessie annoyances as he concentrated on the heavies. I also had fun doing so and gained experience at the same time. SP isn't the issue as you can train a multitude of skills to level III within days and jump into a t1 frig or dessie. The important factor for me was being lucky in finding a good corp to start with.

    SP is never a problem factor at first in eve in my opinion (unless someone wants to jump straight into a BS...then they can go to the character bazarr but won't last long without taking to time to actually learn how to use the skills they just bought). The key is finding someone willing to help a new player to see Eve for the game that it is. Crack that and you'll get much better retention.

    Again with this corp manure.

    I like the suggestion. My main is 4 years in the game and still doesn't have some of the mentioned skills, but nobody is forbidding me from redoing the tutorial if I really want, right?

    First of all, with the current mission AI, you're going to get raped in your frig and especially in dessie. Very fast, practically instant the moment focus switches. We tried to take our newbs in desses to missions and it happened 100% of times.

    SP is a crucial issue of eve. It takes years to achieve basic proficiency in weapon systems. 2 years and my combat alt still cannot get into a marauder - because he lacks SP! Bigger SP blob always wins in pvp, unless he commits a real blunder. So everyone who says SP isn't the issue is entitled to a full shovel of manure in the face from me. Eat some ****, sir.


    A few points:

    1.) Frigates can often sig tank higher level missions. It really sounds like you are having them fit wrong, and/or not understanding how to mitigate damage.

    2.) It doesn't take "years" to achieve basic proficiency in a weapon system. Maybe CCP's arbitrary ISIS may claim otherwise, but so what. Proficiency does NOT mean max skilled! Proficiency means you are functional with the weapon system, you know its strengths and weaknesses, and you know how to maximize its effectiveness. You can be proficient with Meta 4 weapons, although I'll admit T2 weapons offer enough advantages to make them ideal.

    3.) So what if you can't get into a marauder. There are three classes of subcap ships that are very skill intensive: Blackops, Command Ships, and Marauders. Training these ships takes a large amount of time, but that doesn't mean other ships aren't available and capable of performing on par with these ships. What task do you NEED to be in a level 5 marauder?

    4.) Bigger SP does NOT always win in PvP. That is a complete fallacy. As a newb I was killing t2 fit ships flown by much higher skillpiont characters in my cheap meta fit t1 frigates. Generally speaking, numbers and/or tactics win every fight, and SP plays a very minor role.

    5.) SP is only crucial in a few edge cases. Some ships need certain levels of skills to be flown effectively, but those are only a rare few. There are many, many other player skills that very much trump the typically minor boost your ship gains from level 4 vs level 5 in a skill. You obviously don't understand this game if you don't know this.

    Sorana Bonzari
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #53 - 2014-05-21 17:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sorana Bonzari
    Axe Coldon wrote:

    I agree. I have a son. He is impatient. If he can't get to the top level by the end of the month the game sucks and he moves on. He doesn't play eve. Too much work.

    Eve is what it is. It has a loyal following because there are enough people in the world that like a game that takes patience. Its not a grind to get to top level (well eve has no levels) but just time. And you choose your path along the way.

    But its hard to have sympathy for someone that can't even wait a week. Its kind of simple. Start your eve account get one of those newbie skill plans and start that. and then play your other games and come back when you have the skills at the level you want.

    Or join a corp that is newb friendly in eve. I mean the noob ship argument is lame. You can be in a real frigate in a few hours after starting.

    Eve is for Grownups.



    I have a few points to make but let me start with the above quote:

    Eve is not an instant gratification game and all of us older players love the game because of this. I started playing eve just before I started college and it was a move from WOW. The older gaming community of young adults and adults alike is what attracted me to the game and community is the reason my sub is still paid up. I like that I don't have to "Grid out" to get my ships or modules I can play hardcore when I have time and casual when I am busy without falling behind anything. In fact I'm advancing. Plus the lack of the xbox instant gratification mentality player is nice.

    Point:
    Eve will and I believe should stay the way it is. Yes we want to attract more players but we cant simplify the slow start or dumb down the complexity of the game to cater the game to the type of gamer Eve naturally weeds out because for a lot of us that's why we are here. To play with the non-rejects without the will, intelligence, and/or maturity to play (I know these are strong words I mean no offence to your son)

    Another Point:

    CCP already tried something to help New players in terms of SP gain by increasing the training time for new players. This lasted a little while and CCP decided to pull it. I don't know the exact reason why maybe alts taking advantage, maybe to many people where quitting because they got to much SP to fast and blew through all their isk so easily they quit IDK. Regardless for this topic to go on we need to first understand why this solution failed to figure out if another solution is plausible.
    RoAnnon
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #54 - 2014-05-21 18:06:36 UTC
    It seems to me that having a basic level of free skills at creation is good, and necessary, so that characters can begin doing SOME things in game right away besides training more skills. It all becomes a question of degrees, where does that line across the skill board of basic skills get drawn. If the line is too low, with fewer initial skills, new players could get bored with their initial opportunities for activity prior to new skill training opening up others. A line that's higher could give a new player some increased initial activity, fun, excitement, but then that same boredom would settle in as the skill train times spread out through the higher skill levels and higher train multipliers of upper tier skills.

    I think most people that get past that initial "try-out" period and choose to continue playing EVE don't really care about where that line is, and I think that's the difference between those that keep playing and those that say "forget this, it's too hard/boring/slow, I'm going back to WoW."

    This game isn't for everybody.

    So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

    Broadcast4Reps

    Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

    Houston EVE Meet
    XxRTEKxX
    256th Shadow Wing
    Phantom-Recon
    #55 - 2014-05-21 19:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: XxRTEKxX
    I cant get any of my friends in rl to play EVE due to the physics in how the ships move in game, the click to move mechanics, and external viewing of the ships. They all prefer flight sims and fps type games. Valykrie will have the cockpit view, however its going to be arena style gameplay and not actually in the EVE universe. All my rl friends prefer Star Citizen because its being built as a space flight sim. I pledged $125 to the game myself because it will do exactly what i've always wanted in EVE. Mmo, 1st person inside cockpit, flight control with my Saitek x52 pro and head TrackIR on my 3 screens.

    I hope someday EVE will be fully integrated with Valykrie and Prophecy. In that I would be able to leave station in a fighter, in cockpit view, and fly along side friends flying their battlecruisers, frigates etc. I also hope to one day in EVE be able to fly a fighter from a friend's carrier along with other friends in their fighters.

    I also hope to one day be able to land a ship on a planet and get out and fight on the ground.

    All of this will be in Star Citizen, its exactly what I wanted the day I first joined EVE and was disappointed with how its played, and I hope that someday EVE reaches that point where all three elements are near seamless to enjoy in game. I love EVE, want to keep playing, and have high hopes for what ccp will accomplish in the future, especially with the competition that Star Citizen will bring to the spaceship mmo market.

    One of the most disappointing things I ever experienced in EVE was when I was a few days into the game and decided to fly my ship to a moon and see what happened when I got to it. I was disappointed to find out it was just a hollow graphic and was able to fly inside of it. The game is beautiful. However, it does lack a lot of depth as far as immersion goes.
    Sorana Bonzari
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #56 - 2014-05-21 19:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sorana Bonzari
    XxRTEKxX wrote:
    I cant get any of my friends in rl to play EVE due to the physics in how the ships move in game, the click to move mechanics, and external viewing of the ships. They all prefer flight sims and fps type games. Valykrie will have the cockpit view, however its going to be arena style gameplay and not actually in the EVE universe. All my rl friends prefer Star Citizen because its being built as a space flight sim. I pledged $125 to the game myself because it will do exactly what i've always wanted in EVE. Mmo, 1st person inside cockpit, flight control with my Saitek x52 pro and head TrackIR on my 3 screens.

    I hope someday EVE will be fully integrated with Valykrie and Prophecy. In that I would be able to leave station in a fighter, in cockpit view, and fly along side friends flying their battlecruisers, frigates etc. I also hope to one day in EVE be able to fly a fighter from a friend's carrier along with other friends in their fighters.

    I also hope to one day be able to land a ship on a planet and get out and fight on the ground.

    All of this will be in Star Citizen, its exactly what I wanted the day I first joined EVE and was disappointed with how its played, and I hope that someday EVE reaches that point where all three elements are near seamless to enjoy in game. I love EVE, want to keep playing, and have high hopes for what ccp will accomplish in the future, especially with the competition that Star Citizen will bring to the spaceship mmo market.

    One of the most disappointing things I ever experienced in EVE was when I was a few days into the game and decided to fly my ship to a moon and see what happened when I got to it. I was disappointed to find out it was just a hollow graphic and was able to fly inside of it. The game is beautiful. However, it does lack a lot of depth as far as immersion goes.



    And this is the Fundamental difference between a strategy game (EVE), and the FPS / minimal strategy / instant gratification gaming community (Star Citizen). Your comparing apples and oranges. I will most likely play Star Citizen as well but I doubt ill ever build the same loyalty and long term enjoyment relationship with the game. I play eve to GET AWAY for the type of player Star Citizen will attract.

    If you Like in-depth strategy, where fights take time to set up and execute and a loss actually means something welcome to eve.

    If you want instant gratification and need a respawn go elsewhere this is not the game for you.

    Edit: FYI incase your confused the above comments stem from the mechanics that you are saying are bad. All those mechanics make it a strategy game and are very good and needed.


    Double Edit: Its almost like you are saying. Halo is amazing and intense and I love it but chess is slow n boring I hate it...well yea no crap ;)
    XxRTEKxX
    256th Shadow Wing
    Phantom-Recon
    #57 - 2014-05-21 20:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: XxRTEKxX
    Not at all. Ill still be playing eve and enjoying it. Ill be playing much more SC though because I prefer the flight sim model mmo more. Btw, I hate halo.

    Anyways, im just stating what I dislike about eve and why my rl wont play it. CCP is making Prophecy and Valykrie for a reason.
    Ill also be playing a lot of Valykrie as well.

    My favorite shooter used to be the original Ghost Recon and Island Thunder. Then I discovered Operation Flashpoint and then Arma. Ill take Arma over Halo or COD or any twitch based shooter out there. I prefer more simulation in games. Thats just the kind of gamer I am. I love the stradegy of EVE. I look forward to the immersion that Valykrie will have, and later on far down the road the integration ccp will have with EVE and Valykrie.

    Will I be content with Valykrie and its arena based limitations? Hell no. I will want Valykrie to be open world as EVE.
    w3ak3stl1nk
    Hedion University
    #58 - 2014-05-22 00:35:16 UTC
    Don't feel bad. Lots of players play other games than just eve. Just need to find time to play them all...

    Is that my two cents or yours?
    Digger Pollard
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2014-05-24 09:20:17 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    A few points:

    1.) Frigates can often sig tank higher level missions. It really sounds like you are having them fit wrong, and/or not understanding how to mitigate damage.

    "Often". Nuff said.

    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
    2.) It doesn't take "years" to achieve basic proficiency in a weapon system. Maybe CCP's arbitrary ISIS may claim otherwise, but so what. Proficiency does NOT mean max skilled! Proficiency means you are functional with the weapon system, you know its strengths and weaknesses, and you know how to maximize its effectiveness. You can be proficient with Meta 4 weapons, although I'll admit T2 weapons offer enough advantages to make them ideal.

    Simple evemon check shows it takes 4 months for a weapon system and another 5 for a ship, add 3 months for basic fitting skills and 2 months for defensive system your ship uses, then there's also drone skills if you want to be comparable to other people flying your ship, which are extra 2-4 months depending on drone size, maybe propulsion and hull skills for another month, capacitor skills for one more month if your ship is cap-tight... we're looking at 1.5 years of focused training during which the character is useless, or 2-3 years if you want to make it useful in the meantime.
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    3.) So what if you can't get into a marauder. There are three classes of subcap ships that are very skill intensive: Blackops, Command Ships, and Marauders. Training these ships takes a large amount of time, but that doesn't mean other ships aren't available and capable of performing on par with these ships. What task do you NEED to be in a level 5 marauder?

    Really now, so what if I can't fit into a ship I wanted despite 2 years of training for it... /sarcasm
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    4.) Bigger SP does NOT always win in PvP. That is a complete fallacy. As a newb I was killing t2 fit ships flown by much higher skillpiont characters in my cheap meta fit t1 frigates. Generally speaking, numbers and/or tactics win every fight, and SP plays a very minor role.

    Read more carefully please - I said "bigger SP blob". Numbers contribute to SP blob with their SP - and with that in mind, bigger SP blob does win every time, unless a massive blunder were to happen.
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    5.) SP is only crucial in a few edge cases. Some ships need certain levels of skills to be flown effectively, but those are only a rare few. There are many, many other player skills that very much trump the typically minor boost your ship gains from level 4 vs level 5 in a skill. You obviously don't understand this game if you don't know this.

    Every ship of the game is rare and few?
    all-4 character is inferior to all-5 character by ~19% EHP and 20+% DPS in a T1 frigate - check yourself in EFT. How is SP not crucial again? How is level 5 not crucial again? Please...
    Anathema Device
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2014-05-24 11:06:08 UTC
    Anthar Thebess wrote:
    So far i see old people that have multimillion sp characters saying NO about giving <1mln sp to new players Roll

    There still hasn't been a good argument for giving more skill points at character creation.

    Also no matter how young or old a character is in EVE there will always be somebody in here that can destroy their ship. Boosting players so that they get into a shiny ship earlier doesn't solve the problem of combat. It doesn't matter what skill points are given to an entry level player they remain at a disadvantage. If you boost all the new players they are still behind all the older players. It doesn't address the problem. Skill points are not going to solve the problem of lack of good tutors. Better to scrap all NPC corporations, create player corporations at initial login so the new players can create their content.