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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#461 - 2014-05-21 16:04:47 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Here's a better question, why isn't EVE dead like just about every other 10 year old MMO?

Rippard and his followers need to put an end to his crusade of making this game a WoW in space or dead, like just about every other MMO besides WoW, is exactly what you'll get.


Not everyone who wants more engaging PvE wants "WoW in Space". Quit straw manning the position.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#462 - 2014-05-21 16:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Vivec Septim wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Here's a better question, why isn't EVE dead like just about every other 10 year old MMO?

Rippard and his followers need to put an end to his crusade of making this game a WoW in space or dead, like just about every other MMO besides WoW, is exactly what you'll get.


Not everyone who wants more engaging PvE wants "WoW in Space". Quit straw manning the position.


The conflating of NPE/new player retention and PvE is dumb, and has been dumb since the OP. They're two completely distinct subjects which really have nothing to do with each other.

NPE Vision presentation, tl;dr version: Players come out of the NPE and become missioners because that's basically what the NPE introduced them to, instead of going off and engaging with other players. We need to try to steer them more toward diversity via the NPE.

Reponse: We need MOAR PVE. At best, if well implemented, it's a non sequitur. More and better PvE wouldn't necessarily harm the above goal, but it doesn't directly or indirectly address any of the problems they identified in the presentation. At worst, if poorly implemented, it would represent the actual opposite of what they're trying to achieve.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#463 - 2014-05-21 16:12:45 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Here's a better question, why isn't EVE dead like just about every other 10 year old MMO?

Rippard and his followers need to put an end to his crusade of making this game a WoW in space or dead, like just about every other MMO besides WoW, is exactly what you'll get.


Not everyone who wants more engaging PvE wants "WoW in Space". Quit straw manning the position.


The conflating of NPE/new player retention and PvE is dumb, and has been dumb since the OP. They're two completely distinct subjects which really have nothing to do with each other.


Because a path for enjoyment is different than the one does not instantly condemn it to being 'dumb'.

I disagree with you completely. The two are tied into each other intrinsically. Without some rewarding pastime to engage into when not pvp'ng, the game will not grow. There is no need to isolate PvE from PvP either, like some want to think.

Again, PvE is only dumb if no effort is made to keep it fresh. I've put some ideas forward which is more than just "PvE is dumb, it should be ignored/removed"

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#464 - 2014-05-21 16:13:46 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Here's a better question, why isn't EVE dead like just about every other 10 year old MMO?

Rippard and his followers need to put an end to his crusade of making this game a WoW in space or dead, like just about every other MMO besides WoW, is exactly what you'll get.


Not everyone who wants more engaging PvE wants "WoW in Space". Quit straw manning the position.


The conflating of NPE/new player retention and PvE is dumb, and has been dumb since the OP. They're two completely distinct subjects which really have nothing to do with each other.


Nevermind that people who talk about "better PVE" invariably ARE talking about Wow in Space.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#465 - 2014-05-21 16:16:19 UTC
This mindset is, I think, at fault for why much of EVE's PvE has been left to stagnate.

Growth in PvE does not have to hurt PvP at all.

Growth in PvE could help in retaining new players, who may want to chill a bit.

Growth in PvE can still retain the 'emergent gameplay' that PvP'rs enjoy.

Not WoW in Space, a weak straw man argument used over and over whenever PvE is mentioned.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#466 - 2014-05-21 16:16:27 UTC
Vivec Septim wrote:

Again, PvE is only dumb if no effort is made to keep it fresh. I've put some ideas forward which is more than just "PvE is dumb, it should be ignored/removed"


You don't seem to get it yet.

Shooting red crosses will never be "fresh". It will always be shooting red crosses, because the computing power needed to make their AI anything but the incredibly binary behavior it is now would be a massive drain on the game's servers.

Nevermind that CCP has tried updating their AI within their means before, and guess what? Players figured it out after a month, and then people like you cried for more.

Just. Like. Wow.

You want CCP to exist to create content for you to consume. The real EVE players, on the other hand, realize what a sandbox is, and are playing in one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#467 - 2014-05-21 16:21:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Again, PvE is only dumb if no effort is made to keep it fresh. I've put some ideas forward which is more than just "PvE is dumb, it should be ignored/removed"


You don't seem to get it yet.

Shooting red crosses will never be "fresh". It will always be shooting red crosses, because the computing power needed to make their AI anything but the incredibly binary behavior it is now would be a massive drain on the game's servers.

Nevermind that CCP has tried updating their AI within their means before, and guess what? Players figured it out after a month, and then people like you cried for more.

Just. Like. Wow.

You want CCP to exist to create content for you to consume. The real EVE players, on the other hand, realize what a sandbox is, and are playing in one.

Adding to this, in Eve you, and everybody else, are the content to be consumed.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#468 - 2014-05-21 16:21:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Again, PvE is only dumb if no effort is made to keep it fresh. I've put some ideas forward which is more than just "PvE is dumb, it should be ignored/removed"


You don't seem to get it yet.

Shooting red crosses will never be "fresh". It will always be shooting red crosses, because the computing power needed to make their AI anything but the incredibly binary behavior it is now would be a massive drain on the game's servers.

Nevermind that CCP has tried updating their AI within their means before, and guess what? Players figured it out after a month, and then people like you cried for more.

Just. Like. Wow.

You want CCP to exist to create content for you to consume. The real EVE players, on the other hand, realize what a sandbox is, and are playing in one.


Not enough points of similarity between the two games or arguments.
Thus your point is a straw man --
i.e.
building up a separate argument to stand in for the argument or position of your opponent
and arguing against that point, rather than the point the original person is putting forth.

I play EVE, not WoW.
I see potential in more engaging PvE.
It is only a matter of investment in time and resources to make it happen.

I do not dislike those who do PvP and think they should have the freedom to do so as they wish;
I also believe that those who want more or varied PvE should have additional content created as well.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#469 - 2014-05-21 16:21:39 UTC
Vivec Septim wrote:


Because a path for enjoyment is different than the one does not instantly condemn it to being 'dumb'.


With respect to the presentation that is the source of the subject, it actually IS dumb. It's a non sequitur that addresses NOTHING in the presentation.

Quote:
I disagree with you completely. The two are tied into each other intrinsically. Without some rewarding pastime to engage into when not pvp'ng, the game will not grow.


Explain the first decade of the game's existence, then. I'll wait.

You keep making these affirmative assertions which I'm sure you believe to be very pithy and borderline axiomatic, but they don't actually bear any resemblance to the reality of the game.

Another one was, "Dynamic PvE is a necessity."

If it's so necessary, how have we gotten along without it literally forever? What is it necessary for?

In the same way that you are confusing "PVE and NPE" as being one and the same, you're also confusing, "Things I like" with "Things that are vital".

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#470 - 2014-05-21 16:22:59 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vivec Septim wrote:

Again, PvE is only dumb if no effort is made to keep it fresh. I've put some ideas forward which is more than just "PvE is dumb, it should be ignored/removed"


You don't seem to get it yet.

Shooting red crosses will never be "fresh". It will always be shooting red crosses, because the computing power needed to make their AI anything but the incredibly binary behavior it is now would be a massive drain on the game's servers.

Nevermind that CCP has tried updating their AI within their means before, and guess what? Players figured it out after a month, and then people like you cried for more.

Just. Like. Wow.

You want CCP to exist to create content for you to consume. The real EVE players, on the other hand, realize what a sandbox is, and are playing in one.

Adding to this, in Eve you, and everybody else, are the content to be consumed.


Indeed -- each person is a part of the content -- but additional PvE would definitely help give more context to New Eden and more reason for new players, casual players, and players who want/need a break from PvP to play longer.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#471 - 2014-05-21 16:26:07 UTC
You are assuming that me stating that lack of game growth, is game decline, which I am not saying.

It is an idea for game growth -- more engaging PvE.
Not a bad one indeed -- for new players and old.

EVE has survived because it is a niche game for those that like spaceship mmos -- which is and has been an open market for a long time. It has deep pvp mechanics and other such things that keep people, the core people back.

I don't want to change 'their' enjoyment in the game.

I do want to see more PvE as well -- without cutting off the PvP guys from recruits/victims.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#472 - 2014-05-21 16:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Vivec Septim wrote:

Not enough points of similarity between the two games or arguments.
Thus your point is a straw man --
i.e.
building up a separate argument to stand in for the argument or position of your opponent
and arguing against that point, rather than the point the original person is putting forth.


False. I quantified the statement. Because you want CCP to keep creating new content for you to consume, as opposed to playing in the sandbox. You want a themepark game, not a real one.

Quote:


I play EVE, not WoW.


Despite the best efforts of people like you and Ripard Teg, that is still true.

Quote:

I see potential in more engaging PvE.
It is only a matter of investment in time and resources to make it happen.

I do not dislike those who do PvP and think they should have the freedom to do so as they wish;



I see zero potential in a vague generality without any substance to back it up. When people say "more engaging PvE", you're not acutally saying anything, you're just being as vague as possible. If you want to actually talk about it, then come up with some concrete ideas instead of just spouting off about how you don't think carebear playstyles are treated seriously.

If you actually have any ideas of just saying "do it CCP!", then let's hear them.

Quote:

I also believe that those who want more or varied PvE should have additional content created as well.


Create your own content. That's how a sandbox works. It's what everyone else does, what's your excuse?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#473 - 2014-05-21 16:29:20 UTC
Vivec Septim wrote:

I do not dislike those who do PvP and think they should have the freedom to do so as they wish;
I also believe that those who want more or varied PvE should have additional content created as well.

Those who PvP create their own content, and use the tools and mechanics that are available to everybody to do so. They don't rely on CCP to provide that content for them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#474 - 2014-05-21 16:29:20 UTC
The Bene Gesserit witch must leave

Only j/k

Nt rly

Rly

Is Rly DOLAN

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#475 - 2014-05-21 16:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Vivec Septim wrote:
You are assuming that me stating that lack of game growth, is game decline, which I am not saying.



What lack of growth? The game has grown pretty consistently since its release. You just said it will not grow without the thing YOU think is important. You said that, verbatim. It is the LITERAL thing you said. Look, here's you saying that, in your actual words exactly as they were written by you:

Vivec Septim wrote:

Without some rewarding pastime to engage into when not pvp'ng, the game will not grow.


But the game HAS grown. Consistently. For a decade. Which makes your assertion that "the game will not grow" utterly nonsensical.

If the game cannot grow without the thing you think it requires in order to grow, then how has it grown in the past without the thing that you think it requires to grow?


Do you see the problem there? You're asserting, as fact, not just your opinions, but something that is actually contrary to actual, factual history of the subject.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#476 - 2014-05-21 16:31:50 UTC
PvE players don't make content in eyes of CCP, they consume content and want it more and more, and that CCP can't provide because they said they want to you to make the content yourself, so they will sit there and watch Goons and PL and other alliances just like you are watching ants in an ant farm. CCP is providing the farm, we are ants. Battle ants, to death!

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#477 - 2014-05-21 16:33:15 UTC
Not a 'theme-park' ride, but additional content, not just for myself, but for others as well.
My personal view on that is definitely not the only one.
Try missions lately? Many have been exactly the same since 2009, maybe even older.

Trying to 'quantify' it as 'not real' is a straw man, and not my position at all.

As for your third point, it is only vague because I am not the one designing the missions or PvE structure
of the game. That would be CCP's job. Having them work on such things is not bad at all.

If you read some of my earlier posts on this topic, you would have seen some of my ideas.

However, your rabid anit-PvE stance may have you blinded on such things.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#478 - 2014-05-21 16:33:47 UTC
Why is poor PvE what people run to?

PvP isnt exactly a bag of fun as a game-system itself

Better than the shitfit thats WoW, tho

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#479 - 2014-05-21 16:34:33 UTC
Vivec Septim wrote:
straw man


Please stop saying this phrase

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#480 - 2014-05-21 16:34:52 UTC
Well, in PvP terms, allow them to create their content.

There is nothing wrong in wanting something 'more' than what we have
currently from PvE missions.

One idea that I put forth is allowing players to 'craft' missions, submitting them to CCP, and potentially seeing them
in mission rotations.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.