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Scanning Upgrades require activation now?

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Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#41 - 2014-05-21 15:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatshepsut IV
CCP SoniClover wrote:
This change is not coming in Kronos, but we're looking at doing it in Crius (late July). The reason for this change is that combat scanning is too fast/easy right now and we want to rectify that. Since Odyssey we've been monitoring possible fallout from the scan changes, with combat scanning being one area we felt there was a risk of it becoming too powerful. Scanning while cloaked is very powerful right now and we want there to be more of a choice between staying cloaked, but be a little less efficient in scanning, or uncloaking and scanning faster.


W-space doesn't have this choice though. You basicly get one shot to try and combat scan someone in a sig. I'll explain how it works.

Say you find someone in a data site in a new hole. Hopefully its a system large enough you can find a corner off d-scan to launch combat probes, you then throw them way above the system so they won't be seen. Then its the arduous process of using d-scan to narrow down roughly the position and range of the targets and move the probes in. Once your confidant you have them hit scan. If things went well you get a result pull probes in and warp at zero.

There are lots of things that can go wrong, the end result is if you don't get a 100 percent warpable result the first time but the time a second scan finishes more then likely your targets will have warped off.

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Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-05-21 15:24:35 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fonac wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
This change is not coming in Kronos, but we're looking at doing it in Crius (late July). The reason for this change is that combat scanning is too fast/easy right now and we want to rectify that. Since Odyssey we've been monitoring possible fallout from the scan changes, with combat scanning being one area we felt there was a risk of it becoming too powerful. Scanning while cloaked is very powerful right now and we want there to be more of a choice between staying cloaked, but be a little less efficient in scanning, or uncloaking and scanning faster.


Surely there must be a way, to do this without changing the effects this has on the PVE aspect of exploration and scanning?

- Maybe only have the modules needed to be activated for combat probes?


They are completely unnecessary for PVE scanning.



No they're not. I get that you have more time to do the actual scanning. But that does not make the modules unecessary. If you do alot of scanning(which i do) I want to do it as fast as possible, these modules help in that regard.

Time is money as they say..
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#43 - 2014-05-21 15:30:13 UTC
It does not make all W-space scanning harder. You can still sit safely in your POS and scan. In other words, this change helps W-space defenders, in fact it helps any defender with a POS bubble. Is that what you want, CCP?

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#44 - 2014-05-21 15:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
CCP reacts to oceans of tears about AFK cloaking by nerfing ATK cloaking. gf o7

The good news is that those of you who do your scanning under the security blanket of Local chat will be able to pick these modules up cheap, because I don't see a lot of wormhole dwellers hanging on to them.

Since we can't swap clones, I also foresee a lot of Virtue-implanted scanning alts in the future of wormhole space.

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Nightingale Actault
Borderland Dynamics
#45 - 2014-05-21 15:31:03 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
This change is not coming in Kronos, but we're looking at doing it in Crius (late July). The reason for this change is that combat scanning is too fast/easy right now and we want to rectify that. Since Odyssey we've been monitoring possible fallout from the scan changes, with combat scanning being one area we felt there was a risk of it becoming too powerful. Scanning while cloaked is very powerful right now and we want there to be more of a choice between staying cloaked, but be a little less efficient in scanning, or uncloaking and scanning faster.


Please, go live in a wormhole for 6 months before making this decision.

Without that experience, I'm not sure you realize just how much of an effect this will have on the daily life of a wormhole pilot.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#46 - 2014-05-21 15:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
CCP thank you for ignoring W-space again, as always, no surprise there. The only people to use these in W-space are going to be either new players in t1 frigs or when sitting behind a forcefield.

I would however be totally fine with this provided:
- Keep the passive ones exactly the same as they are
- Provide a new set of active ones with higher bonus

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Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#47 - 2014-05-21 15:37:13 UTC
Right, I always scan when uncloaked. There's nothing that could possibly go wrong.

Tell us, how are we supposed to dscan, keep an eye on the grid and scan at the same time?

Protip: You really can't.

Nerf combat scan strength or something, but leave those passive mods alone.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2014-05-21 15:47:57 UTC
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.
Meytal
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-05-21 15:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Meytal
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.

Edit 1: Ships could have a separate Core probe strength and Combat probe strength, if the modules directly affect the effective scan strength of the ship hulls.

Edit 2: This could lead into additional ship bonuses: scanning bonus for PvE exploration vs scanning bonus for PvP hunting.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#50 - 2014-05-21 15:56:24 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
CCP reacts to oceans of tears about AFK cloaking by nerfing WH pvp. gf o7


Fixed for you.

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CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2014-05-21 15:56:47 UTC
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.


Could be possible, as we're delaying making any changes here until Crius, we can take a look. We'll keep you updated once we dug into it a bit more.
Meytal
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-05-21 15:58:08 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.


Could be possible, as we're delaying making any changes here until Crius, we can take a look. We'll keep you updated once we dug into it a bit more.

\o/
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#53 - 2014-05-21 15:58:59 UTC
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.

Edit 1: Ships could have a separate Core probe strength and Combat probe strength, if the modules directly affect the effective scan strength of the ship hulls.

Edit 2: This could lead into additional ship bonuses: scanning bonus for PvE exploration vs scanning bonus for PvP hunting.


It may shock you, but some PVPers scan down sites instead of the ships inside. If you see, for example, wrecks or even a player ship itself on d-scan, you can just move the sliders a bit to look where the ship probably sits and then... you scan down the site the player is most likely in. Then you visit him.

So most PVPers could just evade this issue with special snowflake fits using core probes instead of combat probes. So the modules would still be too powerful in the eyes of CCP.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#54 - 2014-05-21 16:00:21 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.


I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Before you brought this up, I have never come across anyone who claimed that combat probing was to easy now.

Scanning was a pain before Odyssee, and I believe it's in a good place now. Making such an unbalanced change isn't fair to wormholers whose daily bread and butter happens to be scanning.

Most educated people in wh use combat probes for scanning signatures+ships, so removing the effect from combat probes only isn't a good solution either imho.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#55 - 2014-05-21 16:03:43 UTC
One thing to note, this change was requested by quite a few wormhole players immediately after Odyssey and was one of the common requests from the wormhole members of CSM 8. They correctly argued that having these modules passive removes any choice or risk around them and skews the balance between midslots and lowslots for probing ships.

I've had this item on my list of CSM requested wormhole improvements for a while.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-05-21 16:04:55 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.


Could be possible, as we're delaying making any changes here until Crius, we can take a look. We'll keep you updated once we dug into it a bit more.

Removing there effect from only combat probes does not address the risk vs reward ratio that is brought by them for PVE scanning though. Making them active does.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nightingale Actault
Borderland Dynamics
#57 - 2014-05-21 16:04:59 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.


I give you that. I agree with some of the other possible alterations that others have proposed to lessen the impact.

I'll throw out my own as well, how about a reduction in scan time to help with the sheer amount of time required to scan wormhole chains if the signatures will be harder to pin.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#58 - 2014-05-21 16:06:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing to note, this change was requested by quite a few wormhole players immediately after Odyssey and was one of the common requests from the wormhole members of CSM 8. They correctly argued that having these modules passive removes any choice or risk around them and skews the balance between midslots and lowslots for probing ships.

I've had this item on my list of CSM requested wormhole improvements for a while.


By using these scanning modules, however, you also remove the CHOICE of using defensive/offensive modules like shield extenders and points/webs. Seems like a fair trade to me!
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-05-21 16:13:23 UTC
What's the purpose of this change? It's an illusion of choice if you do the math at all.

Reveal what you're in to keep your current scan strength, or stay cloaked and eat the nerf.

Soniclover, perhaps you didn't figure out that small and pointless kicks in peoples' nuts were stupid after the whole ESS debacle. Thankfully, you can heed everybody's words here--just like then--and maybe rethink how you want to go about doing this.
Meytal
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-05-21 16:15:55 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Removing there effect from only combat probes does not address the risk vs reward ratio that is brought by them for PVE scanning though. Making them active does.

Only in wormhole space, and maybe perhaps Lowsec ... but I try to avoid Lowsec, it's scary :)

See, in Hisec, you don't need to cloak to scan safely or surreptitiously. You can use active modules. Risk is zero for great PvE reward.

In Nullsec, if there is someone else in system you cloak up and wait for them to leave. Then you can scan uncloaked, watching local for the next non-friendly to wander in. Risk is zero for great PvE reward.

In W-space, you can't see anyone in Local. You don't know if you're being stalked. If you decloak to scan, you are vulnerable, and since you are distracted with scanning you probably didn't even see the probes from the person who just blew up your ship and your pod, as he only needed a handful of seconds to scan you.

(Do note that the Radar and Mag sites are not the most profitable sites to be running in W-space; you only need to jump into W-space, without dropping probes, to find the most profitable sites)


Changing the modules to active usage will affect Wormhole space first and foremost, and will have zero impact on the two most populated areas of the game.

By contrast, the potentially-accepted compromise will affect everyone everywhere equally.