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[Kronos] More lowsec K-K wormholes

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#261 - 2014-05-21 13:38:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:

But, while I've got you here and can be reasonably assured you are in fact looking at a topic (much like a sighting of Bigfoot, the attention of a CCP Greyscale is rare), would you care to comment on black holes? There was a gigantic threadnaught filled with nerd rage and silly ideas on how to "fix" black holes, and things seemed to stall. Are Black Hole systems still up for review, or are we all happy to carry on as they are, whereby C1-4 are doable but C5 and C6 are just not inhabitable (farmable)?

You could even comment on the thread in the Wormholes section if that's more appropriate.


Fozzie has Black Holes on his "to make less bad" list :)

[edit] Also re the topic at large, I'm currently leaning towards just leaving C4s as they are pending a more comprehensive review in future :)
We've been discussing possible positive changes to WH connections for over a year in a WH subforum, there are several topics with many pages detailing various options and their merits. It makes me kinda sad this 'idea' suddenly surfaces from nowhere (or from lowsec) and apparently with no insight into wormholes or wormholer preferences whatsoever. WH community has been debating this over and over again, in depth, and for a very long time and apparently noone in CCP bothered to pay attention. We are consistently being ignored.

And if you want to do something with C4s, just give them second static.


We discussed things like C4 connectivity extensively in the wormhole roundtables at fanfest, and we're very interested in pursuing something in that avenue in future.

This change is happening simply because someone suggested it at Fanfest, we liked it, and it's incredibly easy to do. We don't even regard it as a "wormhole change", it's a lowsec improvement that happens to use wormhole mechanics. The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius; beyond that I can't say because we're focused on those two releases right now :)


Thanks, do you see anything new worth suggesting to the CSM for discussion in the thread so far?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#262 - 2014-05-21 13:48:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:

But, while I've got you here and can be reasonably assured you are in fact looking at a topic (much like a sighting of Bigfoot, the attention of a CCP Greyscale is rare), would you care to comment on black holes? There was a gigantic threadnaught filled with nerd rage and silly ideas on how to "fix" black holes, and things seemed to stall. Are Black Hole systems still up for review, or are we all happy to carry on as they are, whereby C1-4 are doable but C5 and C6 are just not inhabitable (farmable)?

You could even comment on the thread in the Wormholes section if that's more appropriate.


Fozzie has Black Holes on his "to make less bad" list :)

[edit] Also re the topic at large, I'm currently leaning towards just leaving C4s as they are pending a more comprehensive review in future :)
We've been discussing possible positive changes to WH connections for over a year in a WH subforum, there are several topics with many pages detailing various options and their merits. It makes me kinda sad this 'idea' suddenly surfaces from nowhere (or from lowsec) and apparently with no insight into wormholes or wormholer preferences whatsoever. WH community has been debating this over and over again, in depth, and for a very long time and apparently noone in CCP bothered to pay attention. We are consistently being ignored.

And if you want to do something with C4s, just give them second static.


We discussed things like C4 connectivity extensively in the wormhole roundtables at fanfest, and we're very interested in pursuing something in that avenue in future.

This change is happening simply because someone suggested it at Fanfest, we liked it, and it's incredibly easy to do. We don't even regard it as a "wormhole change", it's a lowsec improvement that happens to use wormhole mechanics. The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius; beyond that I can't say because we're focused on those two releases right now :)


Thanks, do you see anything new worth suggesting to the CSM for discussion in the thread so far?



Not right now, no, but that's mainly because right now I'm trying to figure out how to assign arbitrary size values to starbase structures :)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#263 - 2014-05-21 13:53:50 UTC
Good luck with thatLol
Thanks for the reply, it is much appreciated.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2014-05-21 14:08:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Not right now, no, but that's mainly because right now I'm trying to figure out how to assign arbitrary size values to starbase structures :)


When you figure that out, maybe you could decrease the size of those XLSMAs so they can't be robbed from outside of the POS Blink
Meytal
Doomheim
#265 - 2014-05-21 14:14:12 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius

What is a very high level overview of what you'd like to see happen with or to wormhole space since players have adapted to life there in spite of CCP expectations on its release? This directly relates to the question I asked above: much of what we might suggest depends on where you want to go with it and what you envision it to be like.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#266 - 2014-05-21 14:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Meytal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius

What is a very high level overview of what you'd like to see happen with or to wormhole space since players have adapted to life there in spite of CCP expectations on its release? This directly relates to the question I asked above: much of what we might suggest depends on where you want to go with it and what you envision it to be like.


Bottom line, the null sec cartels will be dictating changes to wormhole mechanisms that will hurt wormhole pocket wealth generation and/ or enhance null sec wealth generation / use of womholes.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#267 - 2014-05-21 15:05:16 UTC
Meytal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius

What is a very high level overview of what you'd like to see happen with or to wormhole space since players have adapted to life there in spite of CCP expectations on its release? This directly relates to the question I asked above: much of what we might suggest depends on where you want to go with it and what you envision it to be like.


I could hand-wave in the directions that are at the top of my mind right now, but that'd be imprecise and unproductive, and my brain is full of research changes right now and I don't want to context switch into digging up and validating what we've discussed internally about wormholes at this time. I know this isn't the answer you want and I apologize for that, but that's what the situation is right now. If you want to do something productive *right now*, I'd strongly recommend talking to your preferred CSM rep about what you'd like to see so when it does come up on the agenda again we're better-primed to get straight into the good stuff.

Thanks!
-Greyscale
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#268 - 2014-05-21 15:25:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius

What is a very high level overview of what you'd like to see happen with or to wormhole space since players have adapted to life there in spite of CCP expectations on its release? This directly relates to the question I asked above: much of what we might suggest depends on where you want to go with it and what you envision it to be like.


I could hand-wave in the directions that are at the top of my mind right now, but that'd be imprecise and unproductive, and my brain is full of research changes right now and I don't want to context switch into digging up and validating what we've discussed internally about wormholes at this time. I know this isn't the answer you want and I apologize for that, but that's what the situation is right now. If you want to do something productive *right now*, I'd strongly recommend talking to your preferred CSM rep about what you'd like to see so when it does come up on the agenda again we're better-primed to get straight into the good stuff.

Thanks!
-Greyscale

That is a superb answer and for me, has my greatest respect. Thank you.
Good luck with all your changes.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#269 - 2014-05-21 15:28:07 UTC
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:

Also i would like to see 1 capital jump bothways allowed for C4 <-> C5 / C4 <-> C6 while keeping the 2b mass limitation, but that's a different story and all people would hate me for that idea :P (Yes i am aware of the fact that you only need 1 CArrier then who jumps into the C5/C6 and jumps back to close, but nowdays every decent wh corp/alliance is able to close ANY 2b/3b mass hole with an equal speed without getting trapped)


Please yes. Though C4>c5 is 3 bill so it would be 3 don't start changing total mass limits. letting caps move in c4 space has the potential for bares to start bringing there shiny carriers out side of there safety bubble. It will also lead to more caps getting caught moving between k-space and there w-space home or going out, since there are so many carriers in c4's already its not even funny.
RcTamiya Leontis
Magister Mortalis.
#270 - 2014-05-21 16:51:33 UTC
forsot wrote:
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:

Also i would like to see 1 capital jump bothways allowed for C4 <-> C5 / C4 <-> C6 while keeping the 2b mass limitation, but that's a different story and all people would hate me for that idea :P (Yes i am aware of the fact that you only need 1 CArrier then who jumps into the C5/C6 and jumps back to close, but nowdays every decent wh corp/alliance is able to close ANY 2b/3b mass hole with an equal speed without getting trapped)


Please yes. Though C4>c5 is 3 bill so it would be 3 don't start changing total mass limits. letting caps move in c4 space has the potential for bares to start bringing there shiny carriers out side of there safety bubble. It will also lead to more caps getting caught moving between k-space and there w-space home or going out, since there are so many carriers in c4's already its not even funny.



I'd say twice more carriers than C4 Systems :D minimum .....


if CCP keeps the 2b mass connections from c4 to c5/c6 and c1-c3 i am toally fine with C4 beeing allowed to let caps pass to c5/c6 space though (or other C4s ? ), so 2 cap jumps = wormhole closed, so either you have a 15 people fleet with 1 archon jumping on hostiles and can go home or you go ball deep with 2 caps and only a few ships .... or you just use freighters ?^^

Also for 3b mass limit wormholes, CCP can hardcode that only 2 capitaljumps are possible ? really recommend that for reasons like capitalseding/evictions etc etc
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#271 - 2014-05-21 16:53:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:

But, while I've got you here and can be reasonably assured you are in fact looking at a topic (much like a sighting of Bigfoot, the attention of a CCP Greyscale is rare), would you care to comment on black holes? There was a gigantic threadnaught filled with nerd rage and silly ideas on how to "fix" black holes, and things seemed to stall. Are Black Hole systems still up for review, or are we all happy to carry on as they are, whereby C1-4 are doable but C5 and C6 are just not inhabitable (farmable)?

You could even comment on the thread in the Wormholes section if that's more appropriate.


Fozzie has Black Holes on his "to make less bad" list :)

[edit] Also re the topic at large, I'm currently leaning towards just leaving C4s as they are pending a more comprehensive review in future :)


Further question...why can people button mash the living bejeezus out of a stargate while aggro locked from jumping, but when you are doubletapped and being blazed by some turdy Vigilant you get a pop-up screen you ACTIVELY HAVE TO REMOVE before you can try again. Like, when you die with "your coils are polarised or something blah blah suck it and die less than one second ha ha ha server ticks hate you stupid Aussie criminals" press OK to acknowledge EVE hates you.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#272 - 2014-05-21 17:55:33 UTC
As a C2 dweller with static C4/HS, I would like to see C4 either left alone, or add a second static. Preferably left alone. The folks living there do so for a reason. The folks complaining that they hated living in a C4, then why did you ever decide to live there knowing the mechanics? Lol. Our static C4 connection generates a high amount of interesting chains, combat opportunities, and flexibility (unpredictable as it is). It would be good to see wh classes more unique instead of less. There are already enough or even too many wh with k-space static connections IMHO. If anything, make connections more unpredictable and random...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#273 - 2014-05-22 00:02:54 UTC
Oh man, that was close. No incoming K-space on C6? No thanks! It would break ALL the things.

I agree with wormholes being as inconsistent as possible, so maybe make it so that some WHs of any class have no k-space connections, while others having their current values (with C4s being homogenised to fit this model)?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Darren Fox
Overload This
Escalation Theory
#274 - 2014-05-22 08:42:24 UTC
Just to summarize what is currently being suggested (update the first post maybe?):

-More lowsec K-K wormholes added
-K->C6 dynamic wormholes added
-C4s left unchanged

Is this correct?
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#275 - 2014-05-22 10:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
Maybe I missed it, but can any DEV give a short reply on the idea of creating the K162s "on spawn" and not "on warpin" so the connection is always probable from both sides, not just from the inside?

It makes little sense that a WH "waits" for someone to warp in, before opening it's connection. It will also generate more traffic, more PvP Engagements and less safety (aka isolating the own WH on demand).
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
#276 - 2014-05-22 10:05:41 UTC
Quite a few of you posting about C4 space in this thread don't even live there.

For Example:
Dual statics: C4 residents really REALLY don't want a second static. It won't help them a single bit. It helps the guys from C5/C6 space way more PVP wise since they'll just crit the hole with massive blobs.
Capital ship travel: There's a reason it's not in C4 space. Freighters are okay. Carriers & dreads leads to SSC, NoHo, & the rest of you guys jumping in 50+ tech 3 armadas with the dread on the back end.


If anything, Cap escalations should be nerfed into the ground. No more blue loot/mnr from the extra bs. Also make those BS ewar immune{painters/webs/ecm}. The real reason those extra ships are there is to discourage capital use for PVE farming. Quite the opposite effect nowadays when said C5/C6 corps drop 10 dreads on a home site for giggles.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#277 - 2014-05-22 10:09:29 UTC
Darren Fox wrote:
Just to summarize what is currently being suggested (update the first post maybe?):

-More lowsec K-K wormholes added
-K->C6 dynamic wormholes added
-C4s left unchanged

Is this correct?


Yes.

Syzygium wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but can any DEV give a short reply on the idea of creating the K162s "on spawn" and not "on warpin" so the connection is always probable from both sides, not just from the inside?

It makes little sense that a WH "waits" for someone to warp in, before opening it's connection. It will also generate more traffic, more PvP Engagements and less safety (aka isolating the own WH on demand).


"Not right now".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#278 - 2014-05-22 10:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Darren Fox wrote:

[quote=Syzygium]Maybe I missed it, but can any DEV give a short reply on the idea of creating the K162s "on spawn" and not "on warpin" so the connection is always probable from both sides, not just from the inside?

It makes little sense that a WH "waits" for someone to warp in, before opening it's connection. It will also generate more traffic, more PvP Engagements and less safety (aka isolating the own WH on demand).


"Not right now".


Please do not EVER do it,
This would change the fundamental character of wormhole space in a very basic and destructive manner, it may sound appealing but the consequences would be dire.

It may sound initially that it would cause more interaction, but it would in fact have the opposite effect and make whole areas of wormhole space uninhabited. This idea is based on completely wrong assumptions about wormhole space that do not reflect the reality of living in them at any level.

There are Far Far better ways to increase interaction, this is not one of them.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2014-05-22 10:23:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The things we want to do with wormholes proper are more extensive and will not be happening in Kronos or Crius

What is a very high level overview of what you'd like to see happen with or to wormhole space since players have adapted to life there in spite of CCP expectations on its release? This directly relates to the question I asked above: much of what we might suggest depends on where you want to go with it and what you envision it to be like.


I could hand-wave in the directions that are at the top of my mind right now, but that'd be imprecise and unproductive, and my brain is full of research changes right now and I don't want to context switch into digging up and validating what we've discussed internally about wormholes at this time. I know this isn't the answer you want and I apologize for that, but that's what the situation is right now. If you want to do something productive *right now*, I'd strongly recommend talking to your preferred CSM rep about what you'd like to see so when it does come up on the agenda again we're better-primed to get straight into the good stuff.

Thanks!
-Greyscale



And what do we do if we have every single of the CSM members and always hoot them on sight when meet them in game? :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#280 - 2014-05-22 10:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Please do not EVER do it,
This would change the character of wormhole space in a very basic and destructive manner, it may sound appealing but the consequences would be dire.

I live with quite a few alts in my own WH and the option of "turtling in" is just ridiculous. Collapse all Exits, start farming, profit. The chance that some new WH spawns just into your WH during that hour of farming is so small, and even if it happens, 90% of the time its just a CovOps looking for an K-Space exit or a Hauler wanting to fuel a POS.

In like 1.5 YEARS (!) of WH farming not a single Farming Ship has been lost in my WH while farming. Not one. Because the chance that someone hostile can invade it shortly after having closed all connections is close to zero.

If CCP wants to have more connections and more engagements in WH space, here is the way to go. A lot of "dead end pipes" suddenly leads somewhere, when the K162s are all open right from the start. And if they lead somewhere, at some point people will meet and exchange ammo.