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Blueprint data adjustments thread

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Aluka 7th
#61 - 2014-05-21 05:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
CCP Greyscale, what will happen with copy time of superweapon (AKA DD) BPs?
They have 40h manufacture time and 1month, 1days and 6h copy time (you per single run stat) Roll.

It is capital module same like for example XL gun Dual 1000mm Railgun which has 20h manufacturing time but 1day 13.5h copy time. When we are at it, I hope XL gun will get copy time reduction also.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2014-05-21 10:51:48 UTC
Chanina wrote:
Further more the current invention output is highly depending on online time. With one invention cycle every 1:15 hour you get 2 to 3 on an average evening if you don't wander of in another region. If you increase this time to something between 3 and 7 hours many players won't manage to get more than one cycle each evening. That would greatly nerf the output of invention. I would suggest if you touch this times consider increasing the output runs. I would be fine with the invention taking 12 hours but the result is not a 10 run copy but a 50 run copy. But that starts to go deep into invention cost balance soon and might be out of scope. And therefore I would even suggest to keep the current invention times until you redo the hole invention thing. I will stop here for now on that subject.


Greyscale wrote:

- We would generally like all blueprint data to follow a coherent pattern; we're still discussing how far we would like to take this

Sounds good, it is always helpful if there is a solid pattern to follow if you want to explain something to someone else. I would suggest the T1 item bpo as the base line while T2 and later Meta-level BPs go with a meta modifier. Currently that would be t2 item takes 5 times of a t1 item.

But those are the obvious ones. Is cost scaling a part of this “data”? Is the BPO rank part of the installation cost and / or the team cost? A rank 10 item is harder to build than a rank 1 so it would be reasonable if the workforce gets more expensive with BPO rank.


First: yeah, "leave invention alone until we rework it" is a thing that is fairly high up my list of options atm. Messing with these numbers is a bit like pulling a loose thread on a jumper sometimes :)

Cost scaling is based purely on the end product value right now, so not directly affected by this stuff.

Sales Alt negrodamus wrote:
Greyscale, just to bounce this off someone whose responding and actively thinking about industry....

Is CCP happy with the way drugs work? These do not appear to have been touched in several years.

Eg, is there going to be a balancing pass made against them and/or are there plans for more specialized boosters?

I like making them, but they are an incredible nuisance due to how horrible the pos interface is for chaining the reactions. And how it is just annoying to get them into highsec.

Personally I'd like to see more variety and specialization like with implants that do some of the same things but some really different things.

Like mining / science / industry specific boosters.

Further, its' really hard to source materials and bpcs for drugs due to how certain components only appear in certain constellations. At least please make it regional, or not at all location based like with what was done to moon materials.


Overall I like the changes. I think. But to repeat myself, we definitely need to see them on sisi becuase eve has a lot of moving parts and y'all are tweaking a lot of them.


Off topic so not getting into it further, but no, we're not :)

Kenneth Feld wrote:
One other thing is the difference between blue prints that get invented and ones that don't

These don't need to worry about max runs
Cap Components
T2 cap components
shuttles
containers
Carriers
dreads
orca
rorqual
there are probably others...


These do:
anythign that gets invented
Also, balancing a max run bpc for invention to the times, or maybe doing away with the requirement for max run. Maybe making the size factor in so max run isn't always required


Yup, aware of this :) Max run stuff is a pain, probably not being changed in Crius

Aluka 7th wrote:
CCP Greyscale, what will happen with copy time of superweapon (AKA DD) BPs?
They have 40h manufacture time and 1month, 1days and 6h copy time (you per single run stat) Roll.

It is capital module same like for example XL gun Dual 1000mm Railgun which has 20h manufacturing time but 1day 13.5h copy time. When we are at it, I hope XL gun will get copy time reduction also.


Will have to do the math, probably copy times will get shorter, not 100% sure right now though :)
Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#63 - 2014-05-21 11:15:41 UTC
Greyscale

will you write another dev blog when you have the second iteration about the Industry changes coming in Crius?
it is hard for a Industry newbie like me to follow all those forum posts.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2014-05-21 11:42:14 UTC
Rabbit P wrote:
Greyscale

will you write another dev blog when you have the second iteration about the Industry changes coming in Crius?
it is hard for a Industry newbie like me to follow all those forum posts.


Yes.
Babbet Bunny
#65 - 2014-05-21 11:48:48 UTC
POS arrays are composed of extra materials only. Will these be changed to standard materials and effected by ME changes?

Thank you,

BB
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2014-05-21 13:13:34 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:
POS arrays are composed of extra materials only. Will these be changed to standard materials and effected by ME changes?

Thank you,

BB


Yes.
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-05-21 13:26:56 UTC
Would it be possible to get some sample data to play with to give better feedback. I'm really interested in making copy/build times a multiple of the ranks you proposed however its much easier for you to pull a nice organised table of this data for different BPOs straight from the DB than it is for us to pull it manually.

Even if its 20 ships and modules across different classes giving build times and copy times we can really help give much better input with some data that we can play around with in excel. If there's a database dump anywhere of all of this static data somewhere we can manipulate even better just point the right general direction.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2014-05-21 13:29:55 UTC
Danny Centauri wrote:
Would it be possible to get some sample data to play with to give better feedback. I'm really interested in making copy/build times a multiple of the ranks you proposed however its much easier for you to pull a nice organised table of this data for different BPOs straight from the DB than it is for us to pull it manually.

Even if its 20 ships and modules across different classes giving build times and copy times we can really help give much better input with some data that we can play around with in excel. If there's a database dump anywhere of all of this static data somewhere we can manipulate even better just point the right general direction.


I think the blueprint data is in the SDE, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I'll see what I can do about dumping out what I have once the spreadsheet is in a good state. Right now, I'm working on assigning ranks to stuff like structures so I can math everything at once.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-05-21 14:12:12 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danny Centauri wrote:
Would it be possible to get some sample data to play with to give better feedback. I'm really interested in making copy/build times a multiple of the ranks you proposed however its much easier for you to pull a nice organised table of this data for different BPOs straight from the DB than it is for us to pull it manually.

Even if its 20 ships and modules across different classes giving build times and copy times we can really help give much better input with some data that we can play around with in excel. If there's a database dump anywhere of all of this static data somewhere we can manipulate even better just point the right general direction.


I think the blueprint data is in the SDE, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I'll see what I can do about dumping out what I have once the spreadsheet is in a good state. Right now, I'm working on assigning ranks to stuff like structures so I can math everything at once.


A spreadsheet would be great to look at for those of us good with spreadsheets, but unfamiliar with the API in general. I would be willing to work with an in-progress spreadsheet if it meant getting access to the information more quickly.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#70 - 2014-05-21 14:25:13 UTC
Current Blueprint spreadsheet

invTypes spreadsheet, so you can translate IDs to names

Pages ([1], [2]) to help guide you through the spreadsheets.
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-05-21 16:42:49 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danny Centauri wrote:
Would it be possible to get some sample data to play with to give better feedback. I'm really interested in making copy/build times a multiple of the ranks you proposed however its much easier for you to pull a nice organised table of this data for different BPOs straight from the DB than it is for us to pull it manually.

Even if its 20 ships and modules across different classes giving build times and copy times we can really help give much better input with some data that we can play around with in excel. If there's a database dump anywhere of all of this static data somewhere we can manipulate even better just point the right general direction.


I think the blueprint data is in the SDE, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I'll see what I can do about dumping out what I have once the spreadsheet is in a good state. Right now, I'm working on assigning ranks to stuff like structures so I can math everything at once.


Hopefully this will help most people followed probag Bears advice - link to download

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#72 - 2014-05-21 16:46:07 UTC
If anyone isn't sure how blueprint data from the SDE fits together, feel free to evemail me.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-05-21 19:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Centauri
Item - ME1 Research time - New Rank - ME 5% Research time
200mm AutoCannon I - 12,000 - 1 - 3,360
Punisher - 120,000 - 20 - 67,200
Blackbird - 240,000 - 40 - 134,400
Raven - 360,000 - 60 - 201,600
Cyclone - 360,000 - 50 - 168,000
Moros - 5,120,000 - 200 - 672,000
Leviathan - 20,480,000 - 600 - 2,016,000

OK pretty sure I've done something special with ME1 being converted to ME5% I presumed these were the same so would be similar time requirements but everything seems a tad off... would really appreciate someone pointing me in the right direction I've clearly missed something.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#74 - 2014-05-21 19:24:51 UTC
I know this isnt strictly research related, but its blueprint related as its about buildcost.

Do you have a number for us at global job/hours? So we can actully calculate just how many jobs we can cram into a station. Thanks!
Jori Ituin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#75 - 2014-05-21 21:11:50 UTC
Do we know what will happen to blueprints that are partway though a remote POS research job, when the changes are implemented?
Aluka 7th
#76 - 2014-05-22 03:54:18 UTC
Jori Ituin wrote:
Do we know what will happen to blueprints that are partway though a remote POS research job, when the changes are implemented?


AFAIK normally finish on date defined at install and will be delivered to hangar in station from where the job was created.
Dirty Wrench
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2014-05-22 07:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Wrench
So all the invented blueprint copies that exist right now that are -4/-4 will be what values after the patch ?

Anything that exists as negative values now won't be worth building/using after the patch if the invention under the new system guarantees at worst an of ME 0.

Or do you plan to scale them as well ? IE do you plan to modify the existing BPCs that people have to reflect the new minimum ME 0 result of invention.

Also where the max runs is currently set very low like capital parts and the new max run copy goes up what will the number of runs on the copies I currently have be after the patch ?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#78 - 2014-05-22 10:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
I like the consistency but I do have a concern and that is time investment in specialism to get the best or be the most productive. I feel there's not enough of this. Some items do require some time investment in skilling (some T2, like Covert Ops Cloaks) and A LOT of slot time investment in copying. For example copying the prototype cloak 3 x max runs takes well over 20 days (with a 5% copy time implant at a POS). If you reduce copy down to build time but don't increase skill requirements, absolutely anyone will be able to do it with minimal character specialisation.

I think character specialisation is a good thing. I want to be "elite" and that implies that not everyone and their mother have been willing to put 20m skill points into it to get the best out of it. You're already doing this with refining, for which I'm currently specialising one character. I think it should be the same with manufacture and invention.

Also, obligatory take T2 BPOs out of the game comment.
Jori Ituin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#79 - 2014-05-22 10:38:15 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
[..]

I think character specialisation is a good thing. I want to be "elite" and that implies that not everyone and their mother have been willing to put 20m skill points into it to get the best out of it. You're already doing this with refining, for which I'm currently specialising one character. I think it should be the same with manufacture and invention.

[...]


I agree, it was also well managed when the changes to the carrier etc. skill changes were introduced, in that the overall time required to fly a [first] carrier remained roughly the same.
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-05-22 13:41:06 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
I like the consistency but I do have a concern and that is time investment in specialism to get the best or be the most productive. I feel there's not enough of this. Some items do require some time investment in skilling (some T2, like Covert Ops Cloaks) and A LOT of slot time investment in copying. For example copying the prototype cloak 3 x max runs takes well over 20 days (with a 5% copy time implant at a POS). If you reduce copy down to build time but don't increase skill requirements, absolutely anyone will be able to do it with minimal character specialisation.

I think character specialisation is a good thing. I want to be "elite" and that implies that not everyone and their mother have been willing to put 20m skill points into it to get the best out of it. You're already doing this with refining, for which I'm currently specialising one character. I think it should be the same with manufacture and invention.

Also, obligatory take T2 BPOs out of the game comment.


I'm sat on the other side of the fence on this one, personally I believe that industry should be easy get into but difficult to master. The elite should simply not exist and players should be forced to change what they are building on a regular basis to maintain the best profits.

This would make the restrictive factor to success the number of blueprints you own and diversity of your portfolio of products alternatively it forces industry to involve more social interaction. Really wish the market/contracting system better facilitated the sale of BPCs so that specialist science research/copy/invention corporations started to pop up which effectively act as suppliers for manufacturing.

Personally managing manufacturing on a large scale working with suppliers for T1 hulls and BPCs was some of my most fun work along with negotiating prices and long term deals. I actually felt a lot more like part of the EVE community interacting with the economy compared to when I simply built from the BPOs I owned.

Additionally I believe CCP have the goal of moving indy profits over to player skill. This can be seen in the mechanic where job installation cost is higher in busier systems. This means the most aware players can optimise their costs better than the lazy who build in one station. Building one item in EVE is easy mode and really shouldn't be rewarded to the same extent as moving locations and changing what your building to find the best profits.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.