These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Fuel blocks - CPP Total Failure to Achieve Objectives?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Palal
Go For Broke
#1 - 2011-12-04 00:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Palal
Okay so CPP introduced fuel blocks as a means to "reduce my workload".

Summary: In reality the net effect of the changes in Crucible on my operation are: More work for, more investment, all for less profit.
- Instantly 400 million more per month in fuel costs due to fuel block and rise of prices due to PI changes
- Substantially more pain - must visit my POS's with JF every 13 days instead of every 17 due to more m3 of the fuel required.
- More investment required - must have double the amount of fuel around - I'm always be manufacturing fuel to consume.
- More time - I must now work the manufacturing cycle into my refueling procedure.


For those who want a little more detail:

Before Crucible - the refueling procedure every 17 days was:
1) Move my toon from wherever he is to wherein in high sec my freighter is.
2) Move freighter to Jita - purchase 1 months worth of fuel for 4 caldari large towers - typically this used to be 1.1 to 1.2 billion.
3) Move freighter to lowsec jump in point - swap fuel from freighter to jump freighter.
4) Login 2nd account; jump to target system when it's clear.
5) Navigate to each of the towers, drop off fuel.
6) Jump back to high sec
7) Navigate to Jita
8) Sell proceeds.

I used to do this about every 17 days. (Time limited by volume of fuel transferred from Jita).

Before Crucible Profit Statement:
=========================
Sales, Less Fuel, Less Jump Fuel, Less Raw Material = 1.1 billion ish. Though this has been declining recently with rising fuel cost.

After Fuel Block Change:
- I will only be able to make it 13 days instead of 17days. So I have to do this even more frequently than before. That's 3 times a month I have to do this instead of 2. /GRRRR. (13 days x 24 hours/day x 40 blocks/hr x 4 towers x 5m3/block = 249600m3 or 49920 blocks.

- Each time will take longer - because I now have to manufacture 49920 blocks. For a total time of 12,480 minutes or 208 hours. I can manage this by just investing in 2 cycles of fuel instead of 1. So assuming there is manufacturing capacity somewhere in highsec along my route; I just need to get switch the raw fuel components for the manufactured fuel blocks and kick the next cycle of manufacturing.

- I still have to do freaking math. How many blocks in my towers. How many of each type of component in each fuel block. No time savings there.

- If i purchase the fuel blocks - they appear to be going for 20,600 ISK each. Or at the current prices I can manufacture for 13,500 ISK approximately. Post Crucible - that difference amounts to 2.37 Billion in costs versus 1.55 Billion. So net effect is that I *have* to manufacture to even remain profitable.

- The PI changes have pushed the costs of PI materials through the roof: Fuel costs have risen to 1.55 Billion.




So my question to CCP is - who's bright idea was this - and how the BLEEP did they think this was going to somehow make my job easier?

The only thing I can say is - TOTAL AND COMPLETE FAILURE TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVE.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#2 - 2011-12-04 00:40:28 UTC
The fuel blocks have actually had minimal effect on prices... it's the damned PCOs and the new tax rates. You can also reduce costs a little by, if you haven't already, researching the material aspect of the BPC to 40 I think for "perfect".

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2011-12-04 00:42:59 UTC
Palal wrote:
After Fuel Block Change:
- I will only be able to make it 13 days instead of 17days. So I have to do this even more frequently than before. That's 3 times a month I have to do this instead of 2. /GRRRR. (13 days x 24 hours/day x 40 blocks/hr x 4 towers x 5m3/block = 249600m3 or 49920 blocks.
Presumably because you aren't running your towers at full CPU/Grid? Fuel block change means you can on- and off-line modules without having to recalculate or rebalance your fuel consumption.
Quote:
- Each time will take longer - because I now have to manufacture 49920 blocks.
No, you don't. You're already buying the fuel, so why not keep on doing that? Yes, the PI producers will forward their increased costs to you, so now you do the same with your products. If others are undercutting you because they (falsely) believe that they're doing it cheaper (ye olde “stuff I mine is free”), then you can rejoice in knowing that they're shooting their own profits squarely in the gut.
Quote:
- I still have to do freaking math. How many blocks in my towers. How many of each type of component in each fuel block.
…if you insist on manufacturing your own blocks. If you don't, then you have less maths to do.
Palal
Go For Broke
#4 - 2011-12-04 00:52:42 UTC
You two are real confused.

Let me address the buy fuel blocks versus manufacture. And sorry the numbers are even worse; I messed up on my spreadsheet on the first post:

I can manufacture @ 14,100 ISK per block, or roughly 1.62 billion per month in fuel.
I can purchase @20,600 ISK per block, or roughly 2.37 billion per month in fuel.

My revenue is about 3 billion per month. What would you do in this case?

And fuel has risen dramatically in the last few weeks. Consider 1 component - Heavy water. Used to trade for 22 ISK/unit. Now is 225 ISK. That one component alone is almost 100 million more per month. That has NOTHING to do with PI.

Lastly, all my calculations are with 0% waste - so it will be worse if you don't do the material research.
Worn Xeno
One over Zero
#5 - 2011-12-04 00:56:07 UTC
I agree, at total rip off - as all of EVE is.
Every time I want to shoot at some rats I have to fly to a 'roid belt, mine the Ores, process them at the station, then go to a manufacturing plant, start the production job, wait for what feels like an eternity just to get a couple of charges for my guns.

And don't talk about upgrading - mining and refining the ore for my last curiser was such a pain, I wonder how all the other people are doing it...

Wait, wait, wait....

You can actually BUY finished things? So if I want to shoot stuff I can just go to Jita and buy some ammo??? LIES! You are all insane!
Worn Xeno
One over Zero
#6 - 2011-12-04 00:59:45 UTC
Palal wrote:
You two are real confused.

Let me address the buy fuel blocks versus manufacture. And sorry the numbers are even worse; I messed up on my spreadsheet on the first post:

I can manufacture @ 14,100 ISK per block, or roughly 1.62 billion per month in fuel.
I can purchase @20,600 ISK per block, or roughly 2.37 billion per month in fuel.

My revenue is about 3 billion per month. What would you do in this case?

And fuel has risen dramatically in the last few weeks. Consider 1 component - Heavy water. Used to trade for 22 ISK/unit. Now is 225 ISK. That one component alone is almost 100 million more per month. That has NOTHING to do with PI.

Lastly, all my calculations are with 0% waste - so it will be worse if you don't do the material research.



What I would do? Manufature lots of blocks for 14,100 ISK per block, sell for 20,600 ISK per block.
That way I should earn enough money to pay fuelling my POSes for a month and some extra. :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#7 - 2011-12-04 01:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Palal wrote:
My revenue is about 3 billion per month. What would you do in this case?
You pass that cost on to the consumer.
Worn Xeno wrote:
What I would do? Manufature lots of blocks for 14,100 ISK per block, sell for 20,600 ISK per block.
That way I should earn enough money to pay fuelling my POSes for a month and some extra. :)
…or there's that: change your business and see if you can sell 500k blocks per month. Blink
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#8 - 2011-12-04 01:08:53 UTC
Palal wrote:
I can manufacture @ 14,100 ISK per block, or roughly 1.62 billion per month in fuel.
I can purchase @20,600 ISK per block, or roughly 2.37 billion per month in fuel.

My revenue is about 3 billion per month. What would you do in this case?


I would manufacture far more fuel than required for my own uses, and recognise that the vast gap between cost to manufacture and price at sale is pure profit.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Khamelea
Bricks in the Sky
#9 - 2011-12-04 01:09:22 UTC
Things change, adapt or die...
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#10 - 2011-12-04 01:12:42 UTC
Exactly what these guys are saying. This opens up a business opportunity for you.

Hey... a little PI action and you can cut those fuel costs down even more if you're not doing that already.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Palal
Go For Broke
#11 - 2011-12-04 01:19:12 UTC
Well you know - I've tried selling stuff @ market price plus 25% but for some reason - it never gets sold... Ugh

Perhaps you missed the point - Crucible has basically increased my workload for far less profit.






KrakizBad
Section 8.
#12 - 2011-12-04 01:19:12 UTC
The market hasn't seen this much change in a very long time. Fortunes are being made. Hard work and careful planning over the last few days, with a couple months of preparation has made me billions, not to mention the most fun I've had in ages.

I would say that this is the polar opposite of a total failure.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2011-12-04 01:25:30 UTC
Palal wrote:
Well you know - I've tried selling stuff @ market price plus 25% but for some reason - it never gets sold... Ugh
Try to wait until the new equilibrium is found (and hope that it is higher).
Quote:
Perhaps you missed the point - Crucible has basically increased my workload for far less profit.
Too early to tell.
Jita Alt666
#14 - 2011-12-04 01:31:45 UTC
I googled: CPP failure and it came back with thruster failure. I then narrowed the search to: eve CPP failure and it came to this thread. I'm confused.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#15 - 2011-12-04 01:46:41 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I googled: CPP failure and it came back with thruster failure.
Really? I would have guessed “segmentation fault”… Shocked
Vult
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-12-04 02:02:49 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I googled: CPP failure and it came back with thruster failure. I then narrowed the search to: eve CPP failure and it came to this thread. I'm confused.


Must be because OP doesn't know how to spell CCP.

Judging by his logic, he doesn't know the number to 911 either. (or 999 if he's UK)

Personally, I like the idea of manufacturing a boatload of fuel blocks above and beyond what you need. I'm making an insane amount of profit per day since I bought a few BPO's. Even unresearched they're still providing about as much profit as I'm making in PI now with the new tax rates.

Now is a good time for highsec carebears looking to turn a profit with little effort.
Tepir
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-12-04 02:18:31 UTC
Palal wrote:
Okay so CPP introduced fuel blocks as a means to "reduce my workload".

Summary: In reality the net effect of the changes in Crucible on my operation are: More work for, more investment, all for less profit.
- Instantly 400 million more per month in fuel costs due to fuel block and rise of prices due to PI changes
- Substantially more pain - must visit my POS's with JF every 13 days instead of every 17 due to more m3 of the fuel required.
- More investment required - must have double the amount of fuel around - I'm always be manufacturing fuel to consume.
- More time - I must now work the manufacturing cycle into my refueling procedure.


For those who want a little more detail:

Before Crucible - the refueling procedure every 17 days was:
1) Move my toon from wherever he is to wherein in high sec my freighter is.
2) Move freighter to Jita - purchase 1 months worth of fuel for 4 caldari large towers - typically this used to be 1.1 to 1.2 billion.
3) Move freighter to lowsec jump in point - swap fuel from freighter to jump freighter.
4) Login 2nd account; jump to target system when it's clear.
5) Navigate to each of the towers, drop off fuel.
6) Jump back to high sec
7) Navigate to Jita
8) Sell proceeds.

I used to do this about every 17 days. (Time limited by volume of fuel transferred from Jita).

Before Crucible Profit Statement:
=========================
Sales, Less Fuel, Less Jump Fuel, Less Raw Material = 1.1 billion ish. Though this has been declining recently with rising fuel cost.

After Fuel Block Change:
- I will only be able to make it 13 days instead of 17days. So I have to do this even more frequently than before. That's 3 times a month I have to do this instead of 2. /GRRRR. (13 days x 24 hours/day x 40 blocks/hr x 4 towers x 5m3/block = 249600m3 or 49920 blocks.

- Each time will take longer - because I now have to manufacture 49920 blocks. For a total time of 12,480 minutes or 208 hours. I can manage this by just investing in 2 cycles of fuel instead of 1. So assuming there is manufacturing capacity somewhere in highsec along my route; I just need to get switch the raw fuel components for the manufactured fuel blocks and kick the next cycle of manufacturing.

- I still have to do freaking math. How many blocks in my towers. How many of each type of component in each fuel block. No time savings there.

- If i purchase the fuel blocks - they appear to be going for 20,600 ISK each. Or at the current prices I can manufacture for 13,500 ISK approximately. Post Crucible - that difference amounts to 2.37 Billion in costs versus 1.55 Billion. So net effect is that I *have* to manufacture to even remain profitable.

- The PI changes have pushed the costs of PI materials through the roof: Fuel costs have risen to 1.55 Billion.




So my question to CCP is - who's bright idea was this - and how the BLEEP did they think this was going to somehow make my job easier?

The only thing I can say is - TOTAL AND COMPLETE FAILURE TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVE.





IMHO CCP with this patch did everything they could that things like POS minning , Pi and Plexes are not one man jobs anymore . You simple have to have somebody with who you will share your work/ profit .
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#18 - 2011-12-04 03:42:19 UTC
Palal wrote:
Well you know - I've tried selling stuff @ market price plus 25% but for some reason - it never gets sold... Ugh

Perhaps you missed the point - Crucible has basically increased my workload for far less profit.








AWWWW POOR YOU
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-12-04 03:51:47 UTC
Palal wrote:
You two are real confused.

Let me address the buy fuel blocks versus manufacture. And sorry the numbers are even worse; I messed up on my spreadsheet on the first post:

I can manufacture @ 14,100 ISK per block, or roughly 1.62 billion per month in fuel.
I can purchase @20,600 ISK per block, or roughly 2.37 billion per month in fuel.

My revenue is about 3 billion per month. What would you do in this case?

And fuel has risen dramatically in the last few weeks. Consider 1 component - Heavy water. Used to trade for 22 ISK/unit. Now is 225 ISK. That one component alone is almost 100 million more per month. That has NOTHING to do with PI.

Lastly, all my calculations are with 0% waste - so it will be worse if you don't do the material research.






Fuel for 1 Month at 14,100 isk per block is 406 mil per Large tower.

Anyway, if you can't afford it; you can't afford it. It's pretty obvious what you have to do. Take down the least profitable POS. The supply for Tech 2 will go down and the price will go up till running a POS becomes affordable.

I don't want CCP to go back on this change. I like it. I run a POS and this will make me more profitable because I run my POS efficiently.
Adunh Slavy
#20 - 2011-12-04 04:13:01 UTC
Eve players have had far too much ease in creating vertical businesses. I welcome your extra work load. Perhaps you can focus on what you like to do, and leave the parts you don't like to someone else who does like that thing.

One can make just as much ISK by expanding horizontally instead of vertically, and perhaps capture even more market share in the area they enjoy, instead of trying to do it all alone.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
12Next page