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So for pve Missile caldari are the win? :X
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-05-17 22:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
It might be interesting. The new Rattlesnake is going to have a missile buff and use 2 drones but they will have the effect of 5. Drone aggro with the current system is annoying though. You might want to try a Dominix before you spend ISK on a RS.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#22 - 2014-05-17 22:39:42 UTC
I lack t2 armor tank and for me in missions I prefer ease of performance so the fact it will be passive shield and I won't need to manage resists\shield booster might be the thing for me.
Also I heard sentry drones are tougher then normal drones and can survive until I'll pull them back...
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-05-18 00:26:28 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
hmm was EFT brainstorming the Rattlesnake.
actually after summer changes that ships looks even better.
considering I already have shields\missile\drone skills I could probably use that one...

So.. active shield brick tank rattle with 5 low slots dedicated to damage (2 BCU \ 3 DDA) what do you think?

EDIT

ok tested even better...
passive tank rattlesnake.
all lows for gank,
meds for tank.
using cruise + drones for damage.

Tank wise omni tanks and got regen of 262\s now if we do 262 * 5.2 seconds cycle time of the extra large shield booster (which only repair 892 damage per those 5 secs) we get 1362\5s shield repair and it's cap stable omni tanked with better shield rep then x-l shield booster. with my skills which aren't maxed yet... think I'll go rattle O_O


I'm pretty sure that you are comparing the passive recharge "after resists" with the active tank "before resists".... There are passive fits that would give you that kind of recharge, but you wouldn't have 5 low slots for damage.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-05-18 00:50:59 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Tank wise omni tanks and got regen of 262\s now if we do 262 * 5.2 seconds cycle time of the extra large shield booster (which only repair 892 damage per those 5 secs) we get 1362\5s shield repair and it's cap stable omni tanked with better shield rep then x-l shield booster. with my skills which aren't maxed yet... think I'll go rattle O_O
I'm pretty sure that you are comparing the passive recharge "after resists" with the active tank "before resists".... There are passive fits that would give you that kind of recharge, but you wouldn't have 5 low slots for damage.
Wouldn't be so sure.

2-2 Specific Hardener, 3 SRecharger, 3 T2 Purger gets you numbers like those with implants and no OGB.

At a silly price : no Drone Omnilink, no TP, no Rigor rigs.

Nice numbers, but not much more unless you want to afk, and there are better ways to do that.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-05-18 01:42:44 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:


2-2 Specific Hardener, 3 SRecharger, 3 T2 Purger gets you numbers like those with implants and no OGB.

At a silly price : no Drone Omnilink, no TP, no Rigor rigs.

Nice numbers, but not much more unless you want to afk, and there are better ways to do that.


After resists... Yes. Not before. (I pulled out EFT to doublecheck myself...)

You have to go into the lows to get those sort of numbers before resists. 3 Shield Rechargers II , 2 LSE II's & 3 Purger 2 rigs w/ 5% Shield Management & Shield Operation Implants only give 128 HP/S before resists...

Either way, though... You can get a lot more out of an active tanked Rattler than a passive. Especially after the upcoming changes...
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-05-18 01:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Tank wise omni tanks and got regen of 262\s now if we do 262 * 5.2 seconds cycle time of the extra large shield booster (which only repair 892 damage per those 5 secs) we get 1362\5s shield repair and it's cap stable omni tanked with better shield rep then x-l shield booster. with my skills which aren't maxed yet... think I'll go rattle O_O
I'm pretty sure that you are comparing the passive recharge "after resists" with the active tank "before resists".... There are passive fits that would give you that kind of recharge, but you wouldn't have 5 low slots for damage.
Wouldn't be so sure.

2-2 Specific Hardener, 3 SRecharger, 3 T2 Purger gets you numbers like those with implants and no OGB.

At a silly price : no Drone Omnilink, no TP, no Rigor rigs.

Nice numbers, but not much more unless you want to afk, and there are better ways to do that.


You have kinda confirmed what Cassandra was saying and yes, Nalelmir seems to be comparing ehp/s with hp/s.

EDIT: This thread is kinda full of win, targeting range as a weapon attribute, now the shield recharge, we may find out yet that armor tanking is bad because the shield arc is always larger.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-18 02:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
After resists... Yes. Not before. (I pulled out EFT to doublecheck myself...)

Either way, though... You can get a lot more out of an active tanked Rattler than a passive. Especially after the upcoming changes...

Off to bed with me, second mistake tonight!

I completely agree on the active Rattler, that's how mine is fit.

Edit just for the heck of it:
Quote:
so the fact it will be passive shield and I won't need to manage resists

No resist modules, 1 LSE II, 6 SR II, 1 SPR II, 3 LCDFP II, SM-705, SP-905, and Siege Mindlink (plus a rookie ship in fleet), only one lowslot used:
269 hp/sec, 464 ehp/sec omni.
Truly passive, zero active module.

And utterly useless for the effort it takes, "a bit of hassle" of using passive modules gets you more ehp/sec against specific enemies.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-05-18 02:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
IIshira wrote:
It might be interesting. The new Rattlesnake is going to have a missile buff and use 2 drones but they will have the effect of 5. Drone aggro with the current system is annoying though. You might want to try a Dominix before you spend ISK on a RS.


The new Rattler will be a brawler.

It is going to need a lot more tank compared to a sniping Domi popping things at 120-150km with Bouncer IIs.

Assuming you bother with MJD at all you are likely to MJD past the rats to get them at 40 to 80km range rather than away from for 100km plus like a Domi or the current Rattler.

I am looking at converting my rattlesnake to RHML and Bouncer/Gecko.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

Also I heard sentry drones are tougher then normal drones and can survive until I'll pull them back...


If your actively looking. Guristas can take out a sentry drone at 100km plus in a very short time. If you get distracted or are afk for even 30 seconds you can still lose them. You can of course also remote rep them.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#29 - 2014-05-18 03:23:56 UTC
Put t1 missile launchers on a standard raven and compare it to the Apoc if you want a fair comparison.

Noticed you still need a cap booster on, you probably need many million more SP before you can fly any ship at max efficiency.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#30 - 2014-05-19 21:12:22 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
IIshira wrote:
It might be interesting. The new Rattlesnake is going to have a missile buff and use 2 drones but they will have the effect of 5. Drone aggro with the current system is annoying though. You might want to try a Dominix before you spend ISK on a RS.


The new Rattler will be a brawler.

It is going to need a lot more tank compared to a sniping Domi popping things at 120-150km with Bouncer IIs.

Assuming you bother with MJD at all you are likely to MJD past the rats to get them at 40 to 80km range rather than away from for 100km plus like a Domi or the current Rattler.

I am looking at converting my rattlesnake to RHML and Bouncer/Gecko.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

Also I heard sentry drones are tougher then normal drones and can survive until I'll pull them back...


If your actively looking. Guristas can take out a sentry drone at 100km plus in a very short time. If you get distracted or are afk for even 30 seconds you can still lose them. You can of course also remote rep them.


Why Gecko? New Rattler will only have 50 mBit. Meaning you will only be able to launch 1 Gecko.
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#31 - 2014-05-19 22:19:38 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
IIshira wrote:
It might be interesting. The new Rattlesnake is going to have a missile buff and use 2 drones but they will have the effect of 5. Drone aggro with the current system is annoying though. You might want to try a Dominix before you spend ISK on a RS.


The new Rattler will be a brawler.

It is going to need a lot more tank compared to a sniping Domi popping things at 120-150km with Bouncer IIs.

Assuming you bother with MJD at all you are likely to MJD past the rats to get them at 40 to 80km range rather than away from for 100km plus like a Domi or the current Rattler.

I am looking at converting my rattlesnake to RHML and Bouncer/Gecko.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

Also I heard sentry drones are tougher then normal drones and can survive until I'll pull them back...


If your actively looking. Guristas can take out a sentry drone at 100km plus in a very short time. If you get distracted or are afk for even 30 seconds you can still lose them. You can of course also remote rep them.


Why Gecko? New Rattler will only have 50 mBit. Meaning you will only be able to launch 1 Gecko.

And what are the RS bonus's? Read the drone bonus again. Keep in mind that the gecko counts as a heavy drone.
stoicfaux
#32 - 2014-05-19 23:47:04 UTC
PvE missile battleships are generally sub-par for mission based PvE. Reasons being:
a) they need to mount missile rigs and thus have to forego warp speed rigs, and
b) cruise/torp damage implants share slot 6 with warp speed implants.

Exceptions would be someone with a full set of (expensive) Ascendancy warp speed implants, and/or if/when someone can make RHMLs work in missions.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-05-20 00:21:40 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
PvE missile battleships are generally sub-par for mission based PvE. Reasons being:
a) they need to mount missile rigs and thus have to forego warp speed rigs, and
b) cruise/torp damage implants share slot 6 with warp speed implants.

Exceptions would be someone with a full set of (expensive) Ascendancy warp speed implants, and/or if/when someone can make RHMLs work in missions.


While im not saying this consideration is useless, how many people, statistically, are actually able and willing to complete missions fast enough that a warp speed consideration comes into play ?
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#34 - 2014-05-20 00:39:25 UTC
The RS is the win for top missile using sub-cap.

It's soon to be update is going to have less damage from light and medium drones.
What it is gaining v.s. larger ships is equal to what it is losing v.s. smaller ones.
It will put it more in line with the other BS size ships. (( Except the Dominix, eatting small ships better than ever. What? ))
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-05-20 01:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Its gaining overall DPS but mainly losing effective range and becoming more suited to a sub 80km brawler/mid range ship.

My impression without testing it is my current rattler finishes level IVs a fraction faster than the Domi but with way more work, meaning currently you are better off in the Domi even if it clears rooms a touch slower. Hopefully the summer patch Rattler wil make it more worth flying.

The Domi flies itself most of the time. I parked at warp in WC yesterday intending to clear the Angel side and blitz the mission ignoring the Gurista completely, got distracted for a few minutes and came back and the bouncers had cleared the room.
stoicfaux
#36 - 2014-05-20 01:52:36 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
PvE missile battleships are generally sub-par for mission based PvE. Reasons being:
a) they need to mount missile rigs and thus have to forego warp speed rigs, and
b) cruise/torp damage implants share slot 6 with warp speed implants.

Exceptions would be someone with a full set of (expensive) Ascendancy warp speed implants, and/or if/when someone can make RHMLs work in missions.


While im not saying this consideration is useless, how many people, statistically, are actually able and willing to complete missions fast enough that a warp speed consideration comes into play ?

As you pointed out, YMMV.

With three stacking penalized warp speed rigs[1] and a 10% warp speed implant, a 2.0 AU/s battleship can warp at 3.45 AU/s. If we look at the chart from the warp speed dev blog, we see that for a 20 AU warp, that's a ~21 second difference, or 42 seconds round trip.

If it currently takes you 10 minutes (600s) to finish a mission (travel + mission time,) that 42 seconds represents a 7.5% improvement in income. If that 10 minute mission is one jump away, then that 42 * 2 = 84 seconds of saving represents a 16.3% improvement in income. Formula: 100% * 1 / ( (mission_time - warp_savings) / mission_time)

10 minutes, 0 jumps: 7.5%
10 minutes, 1 jumps: 16.3%
20 minutes, 0 jumps: 3.6%
20 minutes, 1 jumps: 7.5%
30 minutes, 0 jumps: 2.4%
30 minutes, 1 jumps: 4.9%
"0 jumps" means the mission is in system, i.e. two warps round trip. One jump away is 4 warps round trip.

If you're blitzing missions, then you'll probably want more warp speed. If you're not, then you could still benefit noticeably from faster warp speed if your missions are one jump away, with medium-long ranges to the stargates, and if your DPS is maxed out.


[1] Warp rigs are getting stacking penalized in Kronos 2014.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#37 - 2014-05-20 14:44:03 UTC
Nimrod vanHall wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
IIshira wrote:
It might be interesting. The new Rattlesnake is going to have a missile buff and use 2 drones but they will have the effect of 5. Drone aggro with the current system is annoying though. You might want to try a Dominix before you spend ISK on a RS.


The new Rattler will be a brawler.

It is going to need a lot more tank compared to a sniping Domi popping things at 120-150km with Bouncer IIs.

Assuming you bother with MJD at all you are likely to MJD past the rats to get them at 40 to 80km range rather than away from for 100km plus like a Domi or the current Rattler.

I am looking at converting my rattlesnake to RHML and Bouncer/Gecko.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

Also I heard sentry drones are tougher then normal drones and can survive until I'll pull them back...


If your actively looking. Guristas can take out a sentry drone at 100km plus in a very short time. If you get distracted or are afk for even 30 seconds you can still lose them. You can of course also remote rep them.


Why Gecko? New Rattler will only have 50 mBit. Meaning you will only be able to launch 1 Gecko.

And what are the RS bonus's? Read the drone bonus again. Keep in mind that the gecko counts as a heavy drone.


I know that, but when you lose that Gecko you lose most of your dps, and you have to launch another one and wait for it to get to the target. Sentries would work better as you can scoop them when they start taking dmage and put out new ones.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-05-20 14:55:44 UTC
I wouldn't expect the Gecko to be useful for PVE at all. Just like a heavy drone travel time reduces your effective DPS and it's going to get eaten alive if you send it past 20 km. Yes the RS will give it more HP but it's not indestructible. I guess you could use a prop mod to keep in range of your drone but why when you could just use a sentry drone.

Now for PVP it may have some interesting applications.

I bet the RS will be popular once people figure out it can work around the patch where CCP put limit to the number of drones assisting a pilot. Yes the actual number of drones isn't increased but the effective number of drones is.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#39 - 2014-05-20 17:35:19 UTC
IIshira wrote:
I wouldn't expect the Gecko to be useful for PVE at all. Just like a heavy drone travel time reduces your effective DPS and it's going to get eaten alive if you send it past 20 km. Yes the RS will give it more HP but it's not indestructible. I guess you could use a prop mod to keep in range of your drone but why when you could just use a sentry drone.

Now for PVP it may have some interesting applications.

I bet the RS will be popular once people figure out it can work around the patch where CCP put limit to the number of drones assisting a pilot. Yes the actual number of drones isn't increased but the effective number of drones is.


Not entirely true. I already used Geckos in PVE and it's always a laugh. Does damned little things are so durable, in one case a Gecko even survived combined aggro of a dozen rats while travelling back 50+ km to my drone bay. It still had shield left when I scooped it up again.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#40 - 2014-05-20 18:29:38 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I wouldn't expect the Gecko to be useful for PVE at all. Just like a heavy drone travel time reduces your effective DPS and it's going to get eaten alive if you send it past 20 km. Yes the RS will give it more HP but it's not indestructible. I guess you could use a prop mod to keep in range of your drone but why when you could just use a sentry drone.

Now for PVP it may have some interesting applications.

I bet the RS will be popular once people figure out it can work around the patch where CCP put limit to the number of drones assisting a pilot. Yes the actual number of drones isn't increased but the effective number of drones is.


Not entirely true. I already used Geckos in PVE and it's always a laugh. Does damned little things are so durable, in one case a Gecko even survived combined aggro of a dozen rats while travelling back 50+ km to my drone bay. It still had shield left when I scooped it up again.


I had one die before it could get back from being 20km away. If the webbing frigs catch it, it will not make it back.
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