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Loot Scattering removed from Exploration Sites

First post First post
Orla- King-Griffin
#21 - 2014-05-20 15:02:21 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)

Great to hear, thanks for the prompt responseBig smile

Ah shite...

probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#22 - 2014-05-20 15:06:06 UTC
I remember there being a promise that you'd replace the EY-1005 loot spew bonus once loot spew was removed?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#23 - 2014-05-20 15:08:05 UTC
maybe you should add in some unique items that you can sell too certain NPC corps...
you could even make exploration missions with agents and certain NPC corps who ask for certain items to complete the mission ..
you could get LP and isk reward and standings with that NPC corp...

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Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#24 - 2014-05-20 15:08:11 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites.

You did the right thing. Nothing of value was lost.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.

CCP RedDawn
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2014-05-20 15:10:14 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
I remember there being a promise that you'd replace the EY-1005 loot spew bonus once loot spew was removed?

We have removed the "5 second increase to decay time of all scattered containers." from this implant and are in the process of replacing this now with something else.

Team Genesis

probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#26 - 2014-05-20 15:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Edit: My apologies, I apparently can't read.

CCP Bayesian wrote:
I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards.

Actually, this is the much bigger issue. When loot spew removal was first brought up, there was a large debate over the drops and their impact on the market, that ended in this post, stating that rewards would be increased, if anything.
Vincent Athena
#27 - 2014-05-20 15:14:11 UTC
I'm not sure cutting the loot in half will go far enough. Prices have crashed so far that many explorers have moved on. When they start coming back, even at half loot, we may still have an oversupply. I remember seeing CCP say they wanted exploration to be one of the highest paying careers in Eve. That means in high sec, it should pay better than L4 missions. We need prices to rise tremendously for that to happen.

Another option, increase the breadth of the loot tables. For example, every now and then a skill book shows up. But only a few of them show up. How about including ALL the skill books? That would allow more of them total to be in the loot without tanking the market for any given book. Just make sure the spawn rate is less than the total NPC sales for that book.

The same could be done for BPOs for T1 modules and ships. Include them all, make sure the spawn rate is less than the NPC sales rate (even if the popularity of exploration explodes).

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Caldari State
#28 - 2014-05-20 15:18:02 UTC
Good change. Good luck on balancing it so that it is a valuable profession though.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-20 15:34:39 UTC
Faction ship multi run bpcs please :D
Matias Otero
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#30 - 2014-05-20 15:39:40 UTC
I actually appreciated the original intent of the loot spew, what with adding an element of time-sensitive interaction and encouraging group play, but I can't say I will miss them. It was a good idea on paper. In reality I want to hack the damn thing, get what's inside and gtfo before those probes lock in on me.
Exploration Frontier inc
#31 - 2014-05-20 15:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I'm an occasional explorer, I've ran C4 WH sites (relic/data) at the beggining of loot scattering, and it was painfully long due to the number of containers versus actual loot, with the time it implied.

I've finally decided to try my hand back at exploration for a few weeks now, I'd say around a month. Very occasionally, I run sites at about maybe five per week.

Like most explorers, with a cargo-scanner I know in advance what the loot is going to be, which allows for a quick comparison between loot obtained and total potential loot, after having ran a hacking.

As you can see, I'm no hardcore explorer, but despite that I'd say that I manage to gather around 75-80% of all the valuable loot there is to be had in a container.

It would be cool if the removal of the loot scattering mechanic -which is not really penalizing in terms of loot, its just an actually-not-fun mechanic- was done with the intent of keeping explorer's income stable. So I'd definitely recommend less than 50% nerf, more around 25% maximum.

Edit: 7o Matias :p

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Sir Constantin
#32 - 2014-05-20 16:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Constantin
Edward Olmops wrote:
Sir Constantin wrote:
Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding.Cry

Why would one want this?
This is finally some PvE content that is NOT based on dumb shooting red crosses.
If you still want to train Gunnery and/or kill rats, there is a ton of other sites out there.

Rats were there to make the sites harder, the hacking game tried to compensate that but.. skill for a week and you can hack 80% of nullsec cans.
I find nice and entartaining to clear e exploration site before hacking/looting. Also, exploration path takes you to combat exploration wich is more rewarding and the gun skills are useful.

Before was bad for T2 stuff but I could tell a newbie to do some exploration to make nice isk. Now i can't because I know they would waste a lot of time scanning for almost nothing.
Sarin Khorta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-05-20 16:28:57 UTC
I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:

1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"

2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"

3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"

This seemingly translates to:

1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.

2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.

3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.

There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...

Food for thought.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#34 - 2014-05-20 16:39:26 UTC
What is the average value of a hisec data site these days? I remember when they used to give 10-20 mil per site for data sites. I doubt they will ever get back to that point, even if they went ahead with the 50% loot reduction. There is still the lack of rats in data/relic, and the lower barrier of entry and increased popularity of exploration in general since Odyssey. I doubt the mini game can balance all that out. Apparently people still bother to do hisec data/relic though because I see their signatures disappear all the time, I guess its still ok loot for really new players. If income from hisec data/relic comes out better than lvl 2-3 missions thats a decent option for new players I suppose.
Axe Coldon
#35 - 2014-05-20 16:49:19 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Xander Phoena wrote:
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.

not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them.

good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D

Let's add "Insta finish that minigame Tokens" to the new store. What?

please no. Insta Finish is "Pay to win". Hack it like everyone else.

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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#36 - 2014-05-20 17:03:20 UTC
Well first let me start off by saying thank you for finally removing loot bukkake. It is appreciated. And I do want to start the post off on a positive note....

However, I still don't understand why it took you a YEAR to figure it out. When we told you guys REPEATEDLY that it was a terrible terrible mechanic when it was first rolled out on the Test Forums. It's quite possibly the most frustrating thing about your company. You ask for our opinion and then you ignore it. I understand that there were umm "team changes" after that fabulous expansion, but still that is no reason that it should have languished for a year. In fact it should have been even more reason for the mechanic to be removed. It's just utterly mind-boggling.

And thanking you for finally removing it still feels like thanking you for having finally stopped kicking us in the nuts. Glad that you stopped, but still rather pissed you started in the first place.
Aideron Robotics
#37 - 2014-05-20 17:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Thank you for this change, much appreciated. Could you please check the loot tables on the hardest cam to hack (also the one with the 'bubble' around it that doesn't allow you to get closer than 5k). This might be a drone regions thing but there is always this one can that is hard to hack and provides the worst loot out of the total. That seems reversed.

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Sophaya Fortelleren
The Conference Elite
#38 - 2014-05-20 17:12:35 UTC
I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#39 - 2014-05-20 17:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Affinity wrote:
After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)

Thanks a lot.

Isn't there a way to query from the database how many items were spawned in those sites vs. how many were actually looted?

I would expect that the figures for valuable stuff (certain T2 Salvage, decryptors, Faction POS BPCs) are much closer to 100% than for less valuable stuff.

When I ran these sites I would do the cargo scan, then set myself a primary, secondary etc. objective and pick the can type of the most valuable item first so that the success rate for more expensive stuff would be much higher.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-05-20 17:25:32 UTC
Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:
I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.

The loot distribution would have to be completely random or the failure loot spew would have to contain only a small amount of the full loot for this to be even remotely viable. Otherwise a character with nothing but a rookie ship and basic scanning/hacking skills could head out to null and make hundreds of millions by just failing on purpose and grabbing the valuable loot anyhow.