Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You obviously are not part of any decently sized alliance and do not play the same game as anyone else if you really think any of that. That is possibly the stupidest post so far in this entire thread. Every major alliance in the game would no longer have any logistical back bone if that were the case.

Naa.. Most contracts made to them are far from the max.. They only need a handful that will hold a lot.

I'd expect most of RF's fleet to get Warpspeed rigs, to sleep up hauling..

That is, unless Fozzie has some good news for us tomorrow.. Little baffled that RF would update now and not wait a day to see what comes from Fozzie and the CSM.

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You assume they disapprove of it.

As for Fozzie. Please stop hanging around Grayscale, you are acquiring his ability to ruin whatever he touches.

PS. After this disgrace don't even think about touching the Orca or Rorqual, lest you break them too.

We're announcing it a week before we're implementing it, and we're implementing it a week before the changes go live.

Who knows when they'll come up with their new good ideas, but once they do we can still shift our numbers around if necessary.

crucial difference; nobody has asked for dumb changes to the orca. on the other hand, people have regularly asked for fozzie to do this.

Regarding ORCA, the vocal request is to increase the ore bay capacity since they got over shadowed by exhumers buffs, nothing else I read before requesting something different.

They already are on tight schedule since half of the features they announced for have been shifted to Cirus(?), I won't be surprised that freighters and JF changes will be postponed also.

yeah but that's not a dumb change, that's fairly sensible. it's niche was being able to carry large volumes of ore in order to assist mining operations. between the erm... nereus? and the mackinaw that niche no longer exists, compounded by freighters being able to scoop things from space (and DSTs soon obtaining a fleet hangar).
even something as simple as swapping the 5% cargo bay to 5% ore bay would be a nice change.

It concerns me that to address a few points, you have made such massive structural changes to the hauling backbone that keeps this game running.

I was concerned with the coming industrial changes, but willing to see them in practice on SiSi for a while before making final comments.

We may be a small corporation, but we had already adopted an approach of attempting to perform industry outside of a major hub. The problem has always been hauling the massive quantities of materials around to actually make it possible.

One of our regular builds used to comprise of the following:

Tritanium 1,464,196,468
Pyerite 291,120,685
Mexallon 81,465,340
Isogen 15,966,498
Nocxium 3,588,315
Zydrine 912,678
Megacyte 460,246

1,857,710,230 total units.
18,577,102.3 m3 volume.
Charon's Maxed Pilots (which we needed): 981,250 m3
Total Loads: 18.93, so 19 round trips to collect minerals

New Charon Max Load before rigs: 687,500 m3
Total Loads: 27.02, so 28 round trips. (47.37% increase in runs!!!!)

I disagree with those that say just rig it up and shut-up. Industry isn't as profitable as people seem to think, a point I may discuss greater later.

Realistically you have to make the profit to pay for the costs you are incurring. Nothing new, just the basics of any business, so realistically it's only 3xT1 Capital rigs that will be afforded regularly. So what is that impact:

New Charon Max Load with 3xT1 Capital rigs: 1,045,602 m3
Total Loads: 17.76, so 18 rounded up. Already much slower to move then 6 months ago with the warp speed and travel changes!

So with all these changes, with additional cost per ship used, we save 1 round trip. I'm sorry, but the practicality of the claimed benefit is being somewhat over claimed here, as everyone is only looking at the T2 rigged max end results only.


After many years of performing our building on a fortnightly basis, we long ago realized the time and effort, lack of fun and lacking of reliable profitability (by the time big items and build batches came out, market depreciation and peoples inability to do basic maths by consistently just undercut the lowest on market in Jita already, often negated the profit to barely average out to 1-5% after sales costs) actually had most people migrate to running Incursions or anything else to make a living AND try to get enjoyment from, what is after all a Game, and not to have it be like work which they were trying to escape!

It strikes me that there were a few things with these changes that CCP focused on, and really forgot the cause-effect of all others.

* EHP were high. Fine, so they obviously wanted to increase ganking of freighters in high sec. Not something I think is sensible given they are the backbone supporting the economy, but fine.
* Didn't want certain things to fit into freighters after the changes. Fine, the simple option is increase the volume of those things so that they don't.
* Give freighters an ability to customize a load-outs. This could have been done more easily with module slots, and at a far reduced cost to the pilots of those ships. The reason I think they did this with rigs is they realize they've created a massive array of Capital Rig BPO's that are never ever used! There are reasons for that, examine those before assuming this is a sensible option for customization.


So why did people keep asking for rigs?
I'm not going to lie, we would have liked to have seen bigger cargo holds, but with the profits being made it also has to factor in the additional costs of any change affecting the business.

Practical terms that were regular reasons:
* Size of ships packages were high. Some stupidly so, for example you could only fit 1 Orca in a charon, as they were 500k m3. Personally I would have preferred to have seen reductions in silly sizes before reductions in hauling sizes.
* CCP keep missing/ignoring the industrial points:
Ore compression is one thing, but actually what is needed is Mineral compression, so that much more can be moved in smaller number of trips. This is still lacking, and the means by which players did this with modules is now less viable, and post the industrial patch not at all viable considering the reprocessing of modules and items given the massive losses.
* Hauling is painfully slow now, and exceptionally boring for a game, nearly as boring as mining!


Sadly, all things considered it just strikes me that over the past year all the changes CCP keep making are to increase player time trying to make money, reduce the quantity they can make, and increase the cost of everything else so having fun in PvP is much greater end cost to the economy.

I know I joined for the PvP and found Industry to be an interesting mental pursuit, but with competition coming from other games in the coming year or so, I think CCP may be wise to remember this is a game for entertainment and enjoyment, not yet another form of personal work.

I've already stopped playing as much in PvP, currently not going to waste my time on industrial elements that aren't worth the time invested in terms of results and performance in isk growth, and sadly looking at these changes highly doubtful I'll bother wasting time with the new industrial changes, which will also likely be bringing additional material consumption with it.

No, I'm really not interested in taking longer to haul what we used to (given recent travel duration changes) and doing it more times just to get to the same starting point for the industrial effort to begin.

As in our own development at my place of work:

Always Stop, think first:
* Incentive/reason for the change (always requires a business benefit)
* What is the benefit to the customer paying
* Cost and time factors for us, are they reasonable for the desired feature requested. Is it a wise use of resources?
* Always keep it simple. If it's getting away, rethink.