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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Misa Hase
#361 - 2014-05-19 14:26:18 UTC
I've had mixed experiences with getting people I know to play EVE. All of them have had different reasons for not wanting to play.

Case #1: That one Christmas they offered the 60 day trial, I offered it to a friend. It worked he managed to play for more than the 60 days, but I always had to reassure him that the skill gap was nothing to worry about. He was also disheartened by the fact that he couldn't, 'fly around like Han Solo smuggling stuff around space'. I tried to explain to him that he could in a way, by filling buy/sell orders in lowsec. Eventually he just moved on to other games. He also had a friend of his join him during his time in EVE.

Case #2: I managed to hand out a 21 trial to another friend but he only played for like three days. I was there to help him each of those days, and he refused it most of the time, he wanted to learn on his own. I asked him later why he stopped playing, his reply was, "I don't have enough time to devote to EVE. But it is a fun game that I'd like to play in the future." The last time I asked him to come back was about nine months ago and his reply was still the same.

Case #3: I was playing EVE and had Steam open as well, I saw one of my friends start EVE up through Steam. So I shot him a message welcoming him to the game. After he was done creating his character he asked me how to increase the font size of the UI. Ten seconds later he logs out, never to log in again.

Case #4: I ask another friend if he'd like to play. His reply to me was, "How long will it take to get in the biggest ship in the game?" I told him it might take two to three years to have sufficient skills to pilot one. He then asked if he could buy a character, which I replied that he could. He then asked, "Can I buy one of those ships?" I replied, "You might find someone willing to sell one but, chances are they will sell you one then blow it up after you're in it." He was then puzzled why someone would do such a thing and said he had no time for that.

One of my friends that stuck around for a while probably described EVE best by comparing it climbing Mt. Everest. It's not something that everyone can do, there are many that want too, others are intimidated by its scale, many that try then quit or fail, and many that like to hear about those that do ascend the peak in triumph. EVE isn't for everyone, and I am not sure it ever will be.

“You know my Father used to have a saying, that only where there is battle being waged, is there life being lived.”
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#362 - 2014-05-19 14:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jenn aSide wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Now that I agree with. This is a game full of possibilities, it is not a zero sum game of PvP OR PvE, However ALL playstyles have value and deserve respect.
I strongly believe that those who wish to actively remove and harm players that do not "get" EvE are a toxin in the game.
Your pervious comment implied you were a member and activist of/in this group, this post shows a much deeper understanding.
Unfortunately your previous post fed into and encourages this mentality, and it is this attitude that will harm the game for us all.
I welcome this clarification. And I hope we all are able to welcome new players who will play for many years, always finding new opportunities.


That wasn't' a clarification. Almost everyone else understood what I meant in the post you linked and I stand by it.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with "playstyles". EVE is a sandbox game, if you need the game makers to make fun for you instead of being the type who makes for for yourself, you are in the wrong game and STO is a better choice. They even call their content additions "episodes".

Simple test here. Say you have 2 free hours on a weekend. Do you:

A- Watch a war movie

or

B- play paintball with your friends while you significant other video records you guys making fools of yourselves (ie MAKE a war movie).

If you answered B, welcome to EVE. If you answered A, then welcome to almost every other MMO. EVE can never be super popular so long as it's a sandbox game that requires self-starting behavior and creativity. Most people aren't self starters.


I believe that people actually want to be "self starters" as you say.
However there appears to be an impression that only certain self starting behaviour is acceptable. And players need to be trained or forced away from that.
CCP rises comments at the new player experience appeared to show that anything other than fully shared behaviour that involved PvP was to be denegrated as "basically levelling Up their Raven"
I truly hope that was a slip of the tongue, and not his actual thoughts.
There is room for all sorts of play, and discovering new and exciting ways to play, and interact is a good thing to aim for.
Shooting other people in the face repeatedly, is very very boring for some, and they neither want to do it to others or want it to be done to them.
This does not mean that EvE should be "turned into a themepark" or "everywhere must be 100% safe.

There is however a balance, and new and growing players who are trying to find their feet, are the least able to protect themselves, and react strongly To what THEY consider unfair and Unbalanced.
Are we suprised that 50% leave? Really?

If they look to the forums for advice, It is made abundantly clear that they are despised and ridiculed and told to leave when they express their concerns and lack of understanding. Any dissenting view is to be crushed.

So CCP ensuring the balance is reasonable, and to provide a choice of interesting things to do, (not telling players what to do).
Is a good thing.

Making sure that the game is Balanced, in Each region, is a sensible business practice.

Respecting ones customers, all ones customers is both Polite and a good business decision.


People do not come to EvE expecting my little Pony in space, neither do they expect to be told that whatever they do is wrong and to leave. And the players they encounter to treat them as meat to the Grinder. Hopefully they encounter others first and build some time and Resilience and experience in the game.

The fact that so many leave implies some balance might be in order there.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#363 - 2014-05-19 14:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
CCP rises comments at the new player experience appeared to show that anything other than fully shared behaviour that involved PvP was to be denegrated as "basically levelling Up their Raven"
I truly hope that was a slip of the tongue, and not his actual thoughts.
He's right though, a lot of players are simply "leveling up their Raven", because that's what their previous MMO experiences have taught them is normal. They want the "good stuff" without earning and working for it, and want the endgame without realising that the only endgame is the one they set for themselves.

Most MMOs spoonfeed the content to their players, Eve steals the spoon and expects you to find the content yourself, which is what makes it great TBH.

Quote:
There is room for all sorts of play, and discovering new and exciting ways to play, and interact is a good thing to aim for.
Shooting other people in the face repeatedly, is very very boring for some, and they neither want to do it to others or want it to be done to them.
This does not mean that EvE should be "turned into a themepark" or "everywhere must be 100% safe.
I don't like being shot in the face, I avoid it by being aware that it can happen and planning around it. A significant percentage of players believe that nobody should be able to interfere in the way they want to play the game, which goes against the very principle of the sandbox.

Quote:
If they look to the forums for advice, It is made abundantly clear that they are despised and ridiculed and told to leave when they express their concerns and lack of understanding. Any dissenting view is to be crushed.
I suggest you take a look at the New Citizens Q&A forums, it clearly demonstrates that you are wrong.

Quote:
People do not come to EvE expecting my little Pony in space, neither do they expect to be told that whatever they do is wrong and to leave.
Actually they do, and they're wrong to do so, which is why they get told that they are wrong and to go back to whatever themepark MMO they came from.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#364 - 2014-05-19 14:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
CCP rises comments at the new player experience appeared to show that anything other than fully shared behaviour that involved PvP was to be denegrated as "basically levelling Up their Raven"
I truly hope that was a slip of the tongue, and not his actual thoughts.
He's right though, a lot of players are simply "leveling up their Raven", because that's what their previous MMO experiences have taught them is normal. They want the "good stuff" without earning and working for it, and want the endgame without realising that the only endgame is the one they set for themselves.

Most MMOs spoonfeed the content to their players, Eve steals the spoon and expects you to find the content yourself, which is what makes it great TBH.

Quote:
There is room for all sorts of play, and discovering new and exciting ways to play, and interact is a good thing to aim for.
Shooting other people in the face repeatedly, is very very boring for some, and they neither want to do it to others or want it to be done to them.
This does not mean that EvE should be "turned into a themepark" or "everywhere must be 100% safe.
I don't like being shot in the face, I avoid it by being aware that it can happen and planning around it. A significant percentage of players believe that nobody should be able to interfere in the way they want to play the game, which goes against the very principle of the sandbox.


Quote:
People do not come to EvE expecting my little Pony in space, neither do they expect to be told that whatever they do is wrong and to leave.
Actually they do, and they're wrong to do so, which is why they get told that they are wrong and to go back to whatever themepark MMO they came from.


With all the acres of newsprint, blogs, comments and reviews of the game, they would need to be from mars to come into the game, play the trial, and THEN subscribe, to think the game is My little pony in space.

Quote:
A significant percentage of players believe that nobody should be able to interfere in the way they want to play the game, which goes against the very principle of the sandbox.


Here you are absolutely correct, however it is not the new players who think this.
It is some existing players who are determined that change must not occur to their playstyle, or be permitted to others.
So much better the new players leave, or better still never subscribe, then things will play out just right forever.........Roll


So in summation, the main reasons why EvE is not as popular as it could be.

Everyone knows already. You can either accept it, and improve things, or put ones fingers in one's ears and shout loudly hoping that others do not work it out.

Not working so well is it?
50% leave in the first month.

Giving people a bad experience, or encouraging other players to do so, does not encourage customer retention and growth.

Fine I hear people say.
Glad you have EvE's best interests at heart, and not just your own personal short term wishes......Roll

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#365 - 2014-05-19 15:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

With all the acres of newsprint, blogs, comments and reviews of the game, they would need to be from mars to come into the game, play the trial, and THEN subscribe, to think the game is My little pony in space.
You'd be surprised at the amount of people that come into Eve without knowing a thing about it apart from it has spaceships, many expect WASD gameplay or WoW in space, which is part of why the new player retention figures are so abysmal.

Quote:
I wrote:
A significant percentage of players believe that nobody should be able to interfere in the way they want to play the game, which goes against the very principle of the sandbox.
Here you are absolutely correct, however it is not the new players who think this.
As a matter of fact they do, it's not by any means restricted to new players, but many don't understand that sandbox means that while they can attempt to play in any way that they please, so can everybody else, and that sometimes involves messing with other people.

Quote:
It is some existing players who are determined that change must not occur to their playstyle, or be permitted to others.
So much better the new players leave, or better still never subscribe, then things will play out just right forever.........Roll
The people that don't like their playstyle being changed have 2 choices, adapt or die. Good players tend to do the former, the rest do the latter.

IMHO one of the major stepping stones for new players is to find a decent group to play with. The basic starter corps, with notable exceptions such as the CAS SIG, are of little help to new players. They don't encourage group play, and some of the older players who are in them delight in spreading misinformation which does nothing to help player retention. Newbies need decent guidance, not some troll feeding them bullshit.

The NPE itself funnels people into PvE gameplay, some of which is downright boring and dismal. It doesn't cover the "darker" side of Eve at all, which is a shame because that means people are missing out on some really interesting and deep gameplay.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#366 - 2014-05-19 15:27:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's not about PVP vs PVE. It's SANDBOX vs THEMEPARK. I'm a Sandbox PVE player. I enjoy EVE's PVE because if you approach it as sandbox content it's pretty fun.

Here is an example of Sandbox PVE thinking from the missions and complexes forum: [Kronos 2014] Machariel: King of Level 3s (86M/isk in assets/hour) .The 'thempark' pve players decided years ago that lvl 3s were never worth it, yet here is a sandbox PVE guy using the new tools of an expansion to do something in a different way.

Other Sandboxers do so all the time, like the guys who know how to blitz lvl 4s with cheap battlecruisers, like the guys soloing LVL5s with ASB Vargurs or MJD + mobile micro jump unit Domis or the guys kiting COSMOS plexes with artillery Wolves/Jags and selling the loot to COSMOS explorers ect ect. Personally I'm waiting for the Mordus ships to see what I can do with them in PVE FoF missile-wise.

The Themepark PVE players need someone to do their thinking for them and complain about how bad the PVE is. Sandbox PVErs are too busy trying out new things with old mods and ships to worry about crap like that. it's like the themeparkers would rather complain than think of new ways to have fun.

Likewise, the Themepark PVP players are all docked up and mad at CCP for the fact that EVE doesn't have Arenas for Easy on demand PVP rather than flying in space searching for it and MAKING it happen like sandbox PVPrs are.

So again, it's not PVP vs PVE, it's Sandbox vs Themepark and , unfortunately for the bear crowd, EVE is a sandbox game.
"It's not about PVP vs PVE. It's SANDBOX vs THEMEPARK" is your opinion, not a fact.

I don't really see what is so 'sandbox' about running lvl 4'S in a BC. Yes people can be innovative in PvE and that's to be commended. But who said otherwise? What is this point intended to address? Surely any genuine improvements to PvE would increase the scope for innovative play would they not?

You seem very keen on your sandbox vs themepark analogy, but who here is asking for themepark type features? Answer, nobody.

Of those supporting improvements to PvE most seem to be supportive of making PvE harder by having fewer, harder, more intelligent rats, and bringing PvE more in line with PvP where possible.

What's themepark about that? What drive towards the themeparkification of Eve are you railing against here?

All this talk of you being 'sandbox' and anyone who disagrees with you being a 'themepark bear' is misrepresenting the discussion, is condescending, and makes it look as if you are trying to make yourself seem cool while belittling the viewpoint of anyone who disagrees with you. and that's both irritating and unnecessary.

I want PvE that affords the opportunity for more innovative gameplay too, I think that's what most of the people here who'd like PvE improvements also want. Characterising that as a desire to make Eve more themepark like is a blatant self-serving misrepresentation.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#367 - 2014-05-19 15:44:23 UTC
Neutrino Sunset wrote:



"It's not about PVP vs PVE. It's SANDBOX vs THEMEPARK" is your opinion, not a fact.


Of all the dumb things people say, that's the dumbest. Everything in your Op was pure opinion too. Everything you've posted is pure opinion.

Quote:

I don't really see what is so 'sandbox' about running lvl 4'S in a BC. Yes people can be innovative in PvE and that's to be commended. But who said otherwise? What is this point intended to address? Surely any genuine improvements to PvE would increase the scope for innovative play would they not?


Maybe, maybe not.

The point is that PVE in EVE is fine as it is. The people who lack the will to find the fun in it (and then try to piggy back "think of the children I mean new players" onto their lack) are the ones who are doing it wrong. Nothing wrong with improving it down the road, but the starting contention 9that somehow crappy PVE is at fault for people leaving) is the problem I've addressed.

Quote:

You seem very keen on your sandbox vs themepark analogy, but who here is asking for themepark type features? Answer, nobody.


This is evidence that you haven't read this thread you created.

Quote:



All this talk of you being 'sandbox' and anyone who disagrees with you being a 'themepark bear' is misrepresenting the discussion, is condescending, and makes it look as if you are trying to make yourself seem cool while belittling the viewpoint of anyone who disagrees with you. and that's both irritating and unnecessary.


I deeply dislike when people project their BS onto me. You were the one who posted ignorantly about how I was somehow representing some narrow pvp viewpoint lol. You know, it was like saying "anyone who disagrees with me must be a PVP player".

I do pvp (well, just restarted recently after a year and a half hiatus), but at heart I'm a PVE player. A SANDBOX PVE player. The article your started this thread out with is wrong headed and you reinforced to the wrong headedness with your subsequent posts.



PVE in EVE is fine. EVE isn't more popular because most gamers are too crap to pay attention to anything for more than 5 seconds and EVE demands attention (unless you mine....), not because of anything to do with PVE..
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#368 - 2014-05-19 15:50:37 UTC
See, between Jonah and Jenn I have no need to express myself on what was so wrong with the posts they are replying to.

That, and I have already made my own point of view clear on this subject numerous times

So when I say "You are wrong" its because its been proved.

With science.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#369 - 2014-05-19 15:57:58 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



People do not come to EvE expecting my little Pony in space, neither do they expect to be told that whatever they do is wrong and to leave.


For some reason, people like you think that somehow people can't come to EVE and 'do it wrong'.\

But they can. Recently a friend of mine brought in a few guys from a browser based MMO he plays. None of them lasted very long. But one guy in particular played for several weeks and the WHOLE time complained about how 'my skills should increase as I use them'.

No amount of telling the guy that this isn't how EVe works would satisfy him. Neither did he listen when we explained that his fitting choices were wrong (TRIPLE tanked destroyer with missiles, autocannons and lasers and no prop mod...he said the autocannons were for when his lasers needed to cool down and the missiles were like photon torpedoes.... he died in lvl 1 missions over and over).

I can just imagine you sitting on the sidelines telling everyone about how 'he's just following his playsyle" or something lol. When he left everyone in our little social group sighed in relief.

EVE just doesn't need more people like that. There are many right ways to play EVE, but many many many more wrong ways. Most of those wrong ways revolve around "I don't want to learn how to do things, i just want them to work automatically" style thinking.

Quote:

And the players they encounter to treat them as meat to the Grinder. Hopefully they encounter others first and build some time and Resilience and experience in the game.


If they have to 'build' resilience in a video game rather than having it by way of being a grown person who can keep video games in context, EVE is a poor choice in game.

Quote:

The fact that so many leave implies some balance might be in order there.


It implies no such thing. It actually suggests that 'exclusive' hardcore subscription games can still work in this age of "free to play/hold my hand mommie" BS games.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#370 - 2014-05-19 16:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Neutrino Sunset wrote:

Why Eve isn't more popular?


Probably in this order:

1. Terrible GUI. Loses at least 95% of all beginners. <- infact I think this regularily loses existent subscribers
2. Boredom in space. You never see anyone. You're basically alone in space with chatrooms.
3. Having to wait several months before you can do anything at all. (Yes yes there are a few possibilities but noobs don't know about them / don't want to steal loot / don't want to station-trade / don't want to tackle)

The rest are minor issues.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#371 - 2014-05-19 16:06:25 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:

Probably in this order:

1. Terrible GUI. Loses at least 95% of all beginners. <- infact I think this regularily loses existent subscribers
2. Boredom in space. You never see anyone. You're basically alone in space with chatrooms.
3. Having to wait several months before you can do anything at all. (Yes yes there are a few possibilities but noobs don't know about them / don't want to steal loot / don't want to station-trade)

The rest are minor issues.


All previous mentioned, all entirely refuted (Well maybe the GUI one, but better this than I-War or Freelancer's interfaces, and god forbid X series chains of utterly meaningless menus)

I think you ended up on a private server somehow

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#372 - 2014-05-19 16:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Galen Darksmith
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


With all the acres of newsprint, blogs, comments and reviews of the game, they would need to be from mars to come into the game, play the trial, and THEN subscribe, to think the game is My little pony in space.


Behold, a Martian.

Never underestimate the human capacity for ignorance. One of the best parts about EVE is how it allows you to punish the ignorant. Needless to say, this is not appreciated by the ignorant MMO masses, most of whom prefer to not have to expend any effort into becoming Not Ignorant, aka knowledgeable. Hence the reason EVE isn't more popular, and the reason why we are perfectly OK with that.

It makes enough money for CCP to continuously develop and improve the game while also undertaking other projects as well, so I'm not really seeing why EVE being a niche game is such a bad thing.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#373 - 2014-05-19 16:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Ramona McCandless wrote:

All previous mentioned, all entirely refuted (Well maybe the GUI one, but better this than I-War or Freelancer's interfaces, and god forbid X series chains of utterly meaningless menus)

I think you ended up on a private server somehow



This isn't about "refuting". You can't keep players by "refuting" their points. That's why people don't stick. If CCP had surveys, they'd show that. But the lack of surveys already shows the next issue that caused all 3 of the previous ones: CCP don't give a **** about player retention.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#374 - 2014-05-19 16:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
I wasn't around when the big titan thing went down but I watched it on twitch. I can't help but think initially it is good advertising but then it becomes bad advertising the longer you sit and watch the non moving squares. Bigger is not better in this case, as there wasn't really any showcasing of action, just stillframes of lots and lots of ships.

That being said, I feel like the main reason this game isn't that popular is because the things you can casually do are rather boring, and the exciting stuff requires time, commitment and socialization. I feel the vast majority of MMO players that came through from WoW are casuals and ironically, play MMO's solo until they hit level cap and then try to form ties with groups that are doing the kind of content they want to do, either pvp or pve. Or they play solo, enjoying the feeling of being part of a community without actually interacting with it. Here it is a bit harder to do either of those things without becoming a constant victim, ostracized or utterly bored.

In any case, the game seems to be doing fine. You don't need 8 million players to be successful, and not every game should strive to achieve the most subscribers as a metric of success. While I don't necessarily agree with the way CCP goes about things, it's nice to see that they stick to their guns most times and keep the game true to their fanbase.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#375 - 2014-05-19 16:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Galen Darksmith wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


With all the acres of newsprint, blogs, comments and reviews of the game, they would need to be from mars to come into the game, play the trial, and THEN subscribe, to think the game is My little pony in space.


Behold, a Martian.

Never underestimate the human capacity for ignorance. One of the best parts about EVE is how it allows you to punish the ignorant. Needless to say, this is not appreciated by the ignorant MMO masses, most of whom prefer to not have to expend any effort into becoming Not Ignorant, aka knowledgeable. Hence the reason EVE isn't more popular, and the reason why we are perfectly OK with that.

It makes enough money for CCP to continuously develop and improve the game while also undertaking other projects as well, so I'm not really seeing why EVE being a niche game is such a bad thing.


Albert Einstein wrote:
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
Always bet on stupid, there's plenty of it about Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#376 - 2014-05-19 16:42:10 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:

But the lack of surveys already shows the next issue that caused all 3 of the previous ones: CCP don't give a **** about player retention.


CCP not giving a "****" about retaining people as you put it caused you to be blind to the at least 40+ people regularly in the starter systems? (Point 2)

or the GUI being functional rather than pretty? (Point 1)

or beginners not being able to work out that you can do whatever you like with a week old toon? (Point 3)

Sorry but are you high?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#377 - 2014-05-19 16:59:49 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


CCP not giving a "****" about retaining people as you put it caused you to be blind to the at least 40+ people regularly in the starter systems? (Point 2)

or the GUI being functional rather than pretty? (Point 1)

or beginners not being able to work out that you can do whatever you like with a week old toon? (Point 3)

Sorry but are you high?


Maybe I am high, maybe not. Anyway, I'd add players like you as a 4th point to why people don't stick. You're counter-productive, you know nothing about GUI design or customer care. You're only here to troll.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#378 - 2014-05-19 17:16:10 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


CCP not giving a "****" about retaining people as you put it caused you to be blind to the at least 40+ people regularly in the starter systems? (Point 2)

or the GUI being functional rather than pretty? (Point 1)

or beginners not being able to work out that you can do whatever you like with a week old toon? (Point 3)

Sorry but are you high?


Maybe I am high, maybe not. Anyway, I'd add players like you as a 4th point to why people don't stick. You're counter-productive, you know nothing about GUI design or customer care. You're only here to troll.


Wait a sec.

1. Your second point is complete BS, if only because you start out in hisec which is VERY populated. You're not alone, though if you have no imagination and are waiting for the game to spoonfeed you content then yes, you'll probably get bored.

2. When it comes to the GUI I'd say (and most would agree) that there's always room to improve, but it's not exactly brain surgery, and there are tutorials that take you though how to do everything anyways. I mean, if a player is unable to handle anything more complicated than WoW ability quickbars and WASD controls then I'm glad the GUI limits the ability of dumb people to pick up the game. Enough slip through already.

3. The clincher. EVE is a game about possibilities, finding them, and making them reality. There is nothing the game can do to make a player realize that. You don't need 3 months worth of skills to PvP, explore, or do whatever else. The only limiting factor is the "I won't" factor: I won't undock until I can fly T2 guns, I won't PvP until I can fly T2 hulls, I won't explore in even a cheap ship because I can't handle loss, I won't, I won't, I won't.

4. Hilariously, you say that players like me and Ramona are the problem, when it's people like us who promote Brave Newbies and other training orgs specifically designed to help players overcome the I Won't factor.

If you come to EVE expecting every other MMO, you will be sorely disappointed. If you come and accept that you are starting from scratch and are willing to learn, you couldn't find a better game with a better community.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#379 - 2014-05-19 17:38:28 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:

1. Your second point is complete BS, if only because you start out in hisec which is VERY populated. You're not alone, though if you have no imagination and are waiting for the game to spoonfeed you content then yes, you'll probably get bored.

I want to bet that I have a far more exotic playstyle than you or most other players. However whether I am bored or not has nothing to do with the newbie retention rate.

Galen Darksmith wrote:

2. When it comes to the GUI I'd say (and most would agree) that there's always room to improve, but it's not exactly brain surgery, and there are tutorials that take you though how to do everything anyways. I mean, if a player is unable to handle anything more complicated than WoW ability quickbars and WASD controls then I'm glad the GUI limits the ability of dumb people to pick up the game. Enough slip through already.

The GUI is simply bad. It's bad. End of discussion. It begins with popups that take a full second to load, making fast navigation impossible, carries on to [I don't even need to finish this sentence]. Everything is hidden, clunky, and non-intuitive.

Galen Darksmith wrote:

3. The clincher. EVE is a game about possibilities, finding them, and making them reality. There is nothing the game can do to make a player realize that. You don't need 3 months worth of skills to PvP, explore, or do whatever else. The only limiting factor is the "I won't" factor: I won't undock until I can fly T2 guns, I won't PvP until I can fly T2 hulls, I won't explore in even a cheap ship because I can't handle loss, I won't, I won't, I won't.

Bla bla bla. Is this "wow I'm the toughest badass on earth" circle jerk for people who "made it" in Eve, or is this "Why isn't Eve more popular"? You don't grasp the topic, I think.

Galen Darksmith wrote:

4. Hilariously, you say that players like me and Ramona are the problem, when it's people like us who promote Brave Newbies and other training orgs specifically designed to help players overcome the I Won't factor.

What you do also has little to do with the player retention rate.

Galen Darksmith wrote:

If you come to EVE expecting every other MMO, you will be sorely disappointed. If you come and accept that you are starting from scratch and are willing to learn, you couldn't find a better game with a better community.

This also has nothing to do with the player retention rate. It's just you repeating an elitist mantra.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#380 - 2014-05-19 17:58:15 UTC
1. Wasn't talking about if you, personally, were bored. Meant as a general "If you are bored as a new players to EVE, you have no idea what the game is about and what possibilities exist." Though, do tell about this "exotic" playstyle of yours.

2. Oh noes! A FULL SECOND! *swoon*.....Oh wait, the whole damn server operates on 1-second ticks anyways. Anyways, please link to a better example of a spaceship game GUI for easier reference for the devs.

3. It's both: you need to actually be smart (or at least willing to learn) to succeed in EVE, and most people are neither smart nor willing to learn. Hence why most people don't sub and why EVE isn't more popular.

4. Steering players into active learning groups like BN or RvB has everything to do with player retention. This is a game built in the back of player interaction, getting newbies into places where they are getting their questions answered while interacting with both fellow newbies and vets is absolutely vital. It helps overcome the "everyone plays solo" mentality that surrounds most MMO players of the WoW generation.

5. So wait, expecting people to learn how a game works is elitism now? And yes, people wanting EVE to be like other MMOs on the market DOES lead to a lower retention rate, or did you miss the link I provided of the guy trying to play EVE like WoW and failing miserably?

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler