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New. EVE lore questions

Author
CETA Elitist
The Prometheus Society
#21 - 2014-05-14 21:11:39 UTC
Kallie Altosoro wrote:
[quote]

One of my favorite lines ever is "What is a man but a miserable little pile of secrets?" and it certainly can apply to EVE and the clone. The body of a clone is an exact copy of the primary. Under a microscope or even to the naked eye, they are indistinguishable from each other. The main difference is the primary has a full brain of memories and sentience. The clone does not. Not until the memories are transferred is the clone even what we would call "a person." It is, for all intensive purposes, an empty shell.

don't forget that the clone has to have an identical brain structure. that is the most important detail.
Kallie Altosoro
Ardene TAC
#22 - 2014-05-15 06:38:57 UTC
Quote:

don't forget that the clone has to have an identical brain structure. that is the most important detail.
That's a given. As I said, the clones are identical in every way except that the clone originally has no information in it's brain.

"Hey, this is my kind of rain.  No wonder the sky looked funny today."  -Dante

At warp, I can fly through a star.  But I have to finaggle my way around this asteroid.  /smirk

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#23 - 2014-05-15 09:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Regarding cloning, consciousness, and the soul, you'll want to read the Cloning and Death articles, which go into detail about the exact scientific process of cloning, how the experience 'feels' from the recipient's perspective, and how the different cultures view it and its relation to the soul.

The thing to keep in mind is this: There is nothing physically stopping the existence of multiple simultaneous clones of the same person. This is limited by laws and that the technology as it is connects molecules in quantum entanglement state directly between the burn scanner and the clone brain in order to make the transfer as one-to-one as possible, but the brain scan is ultimately just data and theoretically (and in several missions) could be saved in a database for later use. This is also how the concept of 'soft clones' or 'backup clones' works, by saving a brain scan on file to use as a backup in the event of a capsuleer dying outside the pod. Likewise, DUST mercenaries are explicitly stored in a central database, operating inverse of capsuleers (they have a central personality core saved persistently on a database, which is copied onto their next clone. When their clones die, they transmit the data to the central database which updates its personality core, like patching a program. It's like having a master copy). So ultimately, clones are just duplicates.

All of that doesn't necessarily mean that the person isn't the same person, though. Stitcher and some other RPers have made very good arguments in support of the idea that it is still the same person (namely, the 'grandfaster's axe/ship of thesius' idea that even in the course of natural life there is no part of you that doesn't get completely replaced; that who you are today shares none of the same molecules etc as the person you were a year ago). That's an argument best discussed in-character, though, because it's a philosophical debate in which there's no real right or wrong answer as far as lore goes.

As far as the soul goes, this is left up in the air in lore (if it exists, how it interacts with cloning, etc), and is a controversial issue among the empire cultures (see the Death article). There are those that believe that the soul is lost upon cloning and the new clone is just an empty shell, those that believe the soul migrates to the new clone, and probably even those that believe that a new soul is created each time a person clones.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#24 - 2014-05-15 21:44:07 UTC
Kallie Altosoro wrote:
Hi. I'm new. *wave* I had a few questions about the game's story. This seemed like the best place to ask.

*Cloning*
I understand the concept of the clone in EVE and automatic memory transfer. But the EVElopedia leaves out one very important point: consciousness. I consider myself a sentient being. I'm aware of myself, my existance, and my physicality. This would be your consciousness. Or, if you will, an aspect of your soul. If there were another person that was exactly like me in existance, that person would not BE me even with the same memories. My self awareness is in me, not the other person. To quote Data from ST:TNG "B4 contains all of my memories. But even if he did not, he would not be me." Does your consciousness move in to your clone when your prior one dies and it's memories scanned and transfered? Essentially, what is the experience of transfer like? Am I at one moment looking out in to space through my pod and then suddenly I am opening my eyes inside a clone gestation chamber? Or does is the sensation more along the lines of immediate death and a second sentient being awakens with the memories of a previous clone but it is NOT me?

As I understand it, waking up in a clone wouldn't seem much different than waking up after being knocked unconscious.

As far as whether or not a copy is the same person, that is a philosophical issue that is debated both in universe and in real life along with other dilemmas such as are you still you if you replace your body with machinery and where the cutoff point is. None of this is objective data, and doesn't warrant being put in a wiki.

It is at least a problem for the Amarr faith, they prohibit nobles from being cloned.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#25 - 2014-05-15 21:49:15 UTC
Rather, they prohibit royals from being cloned, but nobles often voluntarily refuse it as well. And many others also keep a rather dim view of it.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2014-05-15 21:59:54 UTC
Ah thanks for the clarification.
I am not so up on Amarr history and culture and I got the two mixed up.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-19 16:44:56 UTC
Kallie Altosoro wrote:
I wonder if the Amarr know that their Emperor / Empress is an elected position chosen from a pool of participants (of which the losers are required to commit ritual suicide.) I'll bet that the church suppresses that fact.


I strongly recommend you read up on how the Khanid Kingdom came into existence - it will shed some light into this question.


You also need to understand that the current Empress, Jamyl Sarum was not elected as previous emperors have been. Tradition is slowly eroding in the Empire...
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