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Industry, politics, and physics. (Don't fake the physics, please.)

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Andronaxus
Greed is Good Inc.
#1 - 2014-05-18 22:32:27 UTC
If the goal of the upcoming changes to industry is to encourage the industrial development of one region (null), and there are good reasons for it, fine. That's okay.

But...

Prices and industry should be affected by socio-political issues. Not physics. Here's my logic:

The socio-political, how it affects hisec/null, and the costs/benefits of each:

1) Hisec is law and order. Less loss due to piracy. Hence, industry can flourish. That's why it's hisec. [Net minus to costs]
2) Hisec is high taxes. More cost to pay for all those police we use to police our spacelanes (CONCORD). [Net plus to costs]

3) Lowsec is anarchy. More loss due to piracy. Hence, industry doesn't flourish because what fool would invest capital in an area afflicted with lawlessness? [Net plus to costs]
4) Lowsec is low taxes. No police or government to pay for. [Net minus to costs--unless the local warlord charges high taxes]

The physics:

What is not logical, and loses my interest in a game like EVE, is the arbitrary nature of game adjustment, such as:

We've decided to change the physics of the game such that it is MAGICALLY possible for nullsec ore mining to compress ores into a more dense form than is possible in hisec, where the physics somehow changes with relation to ore compression once we pass through a hisec jump gate. (What?! Yes, that's what they're really saying: the physics changes.)

CCP, please: If you are going to change things, no hokum on the physics, which should be consistent throughout the universe. Admit what you want to do--such as encourage more industry in neglected areas (lowsec)--but do it using socio-political avenues, not by fake physics. It just spoils the fun of the game.


Disclaimer: I oppose some of the changes. I really don't like the changes to the haulers, which will be a nerf.
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#2 - 2014-05-18 22:35:16 UTC
I like what they are doing.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3 - 2014-05-18 22:35:26 UTC
Can I have your stuff?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-05-18 23:53:06 UTC
Andronaxus wrote:
...

What is not logical, and loses my interest in a game like EVE, is the arbitrary nature of game adjustment,...


Logic is not a blunt instrument. It functions in balance with other qualities such as memory, imagination and even common sense.
Adjustments might seem arbitrary because they aren't purely logical, experience or ambition combine with logic to get things done.
Also, arbitrary physics oddities in eve are all over the place, you really going to pick and choose which ones you don't like?



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-05-19 00:04:18 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Andronaxus wrote:
...

What is not logical, and loses my interest in a game like EVE, is the arbitrary nature of game adjustment,...


Logic is not a blunt instrument. It functions in balance with other qualities such as memory, imagination and even common sense.






In terms of real world politics (esp. the current government here in Australia) the general attitude is "The facts of the matter, while admittedly interesting, are totally irrelevant."
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#6 - 2014-05-19 04:08:03 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
In terms of real world politics (esp. the current government here in Australia) the general attitude is "The facts of the matter, while admittedly interesting, are totally irrelevant."

The facts of the matter are purely fictional with the current Government I think.

I never voted for them and I'm sticking to that story.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#7 - 2014-05-19 04:29:59 UTC
Andronaxus wrote:

We've decided to change the physics of the game such that it is MAGICALLY possible for nullsec ore mining to compress ores into a more dense form than is possible in hisec, where the physics somehow changes with relation to ore compression once we pass through a hisec jump gate.
Nullsec miners are using a technology that is forbidden by Concord to do so. Problem solved.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#8 - 2014-05-19 07:15:29 UTC
Andronaxus wrote:
We've decided to change the physics of the game such that it is MAGICALLY possible for nullsec ore mining to compress ores into a more dense form than is possible in hisec, where the physics somehow changes with relation to ore compression once we pass through a hisec jump gate. (What?! Yes, that's what they're really saying: the physics changes.)

I'm not aware of any difference in compression between high and null... Which leads me to believe that it's the composition changes, the addition of large quantities of tritanium (primarily) to nullsec ores, which is the focus here.
Now I'm not seeing a physics change but perhaps I'm missing something.
If Spod spawned in highsec it would contain the same minerals that it does in null, the "physics" remains consistent. Of course Spod doesn't spawn in 1.0 and (if we assume that all space in the New Eden Cluster is created relatively consistent) this might be seen as odd - but perhaps it's not a question of the physics but of history.
Much of highsec has been continuously occupied by spacefaring cultures for a very long time, long before the Jove brought the Caldari their capsule technology people in highsec were mining asteroids - perhaps Spod doesn't spawn in highsec because it was all mined out long ago (the Make EVE Real presentation on asteroid mining made it clear that it would be the most valuable materials (platinum for example) which would make the operation financially viable).
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#9 - 2014-05-19 07:23:23 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Andronaxus wrote:

We've decided to change the physics of the game such that it is MAGICALLY possible for nullsec ore mining to compress ores into a more dense form than is possible in hisec, where the physics somehow changes with relation to ore compression once we pass through a hisec jump gate.
Nullsec miners are using a technology that is forbidden by Concord to do so. Problem solved.

Greater production due to workers being jacked up on high-end boosters.

Oh god.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-05-19 09:00:19 UTC
Its kinda like the real world, you know, all those steel mills and electronics factories being built in the Sudan and Tibet and Antarctica are there for a reason.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#11 - 2014-05-19 09:04:22 UTC
TL;DR

OP does not like this feature

Therefore; this feature is illogical

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-05-19 10:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Well, CCP are determined to encrappen high-sec industry it seems, just as they were determined to make everything else in high sec crap as well. The one non-crap thing in high sec is Jita because Jita is a great sucking machine that gathers up both raw materials and finished products, optimising both buy and sell prices. It's also pretty much the only place you can buy and sell in volume. It used to be cheaper to buy in bulk at Jita and ship items into null to seed markets there. In my opinion this will still be the case after the changes, even though JF fuel is going to double, because anyone seriously into industry won't sell high enough volume at a null outpost to make it worthwhile to build locally. So the net result of these changes will probably be more expensive null markets rather than more local supply.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#13 - 2014-05-19 10:15:19 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Well, CCP are determined to encrappen high-sec industry it seems, just as they were determined to make everything else in high sec crap as well........... So the net result of these changes will probably be more expensive null markets rather than more local supply.


What

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-05-19 10:17:18 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Well, CCP are determined to encrappen high-sec industry it seems, just as they were determined to make everything else in high sec crap as well........... So the net result of these changes will probably be more expensive null markets rather than more local supply.


What


In short, everything will be more expensive.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-05-19 10:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
EVE is full of these kinds of inconsistencies. For example, why are planets and asteroid belts so much richer in null? Have Concord secretly been tractoring away the Jaspet roids in high during downtime?

If you're determined to nitpick at EVE for disagreeing with the laws of physics you certainly have plenty of fuel, cue space submarines. Hell, they can't even agree with their own physics - the lore states that jump gates can only be built in binary systems, but there isn't a single binary in the game.

I appreciate a game that is able to get over the hype of realism and focus on entertainment (and balance, in an MMO). As long as it's believable (and it's hard to make sci-fi unbelievable) then it's fine as far as I'm concerned.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#16 - 2014-05-19 10:37:09 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Well, CCP are determined to encrappen high-sec industry it seems, just as they were determined to make everything else in high sec crap as well........... So the net result of these changes will probably be more expensive null markets rather than more local supply.


What


In short, everything will be more expensive.


Why would Jump Fuel double in price?

Why would goods coming from null make things more expensive?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-05-19 10:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunanca
We all know new eden is submerged in water. The reason ore is compressed more in null sec is because null sec is further from the surface than high sec. The added pressure from greater dept means ore is compressed more.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-05-19 10:46:45 UTC
Andronaxus wrote:
If the goal of the upcoming changes to industry is to encourage the industrial development of one region (null), and there are good reasons for it, fine. That's okay.

But...

Prices and industry should be affected by socio-political issues. Not physics. Here's my logic:

The socio-political, how it affects hisec/null, and the costs/benefits of each:

1) Hisec is law and order. Less loss due to piracy. Hence, industry can flourish. That's why it's hisec. [Net minus to costs]
2) Hisec is high taxes. More cost to pay for all those police we use to police our spacelanes (CONCORD). [Net plus to costs]

3) Lowsec is anarchy. More loss due to piracy. Hence, industry doesn't flourish because what fool would invest capital in an area afflicted with lawlessness? [Net plus to costs]
4) Lowsec is low taxes. No police or government to pay for. [Net minus to costs--unless the local warlord charges high taxes]

The physics:

What is not logical, and loses my interest in a game like EVE, is the arbitrary nature of game adjustment, such as:

We've decided to change the physics of the game such that it is MAGICALLY possible for nullsec ore mining to compress ores into a more dense form than is possible in hisec, where the physics somehow changes with relation to ore compression once we pass through a hisec jump gate. (What?! Yes, that's what they're really saying: the physics changes.)

CCP, please: If you are going to change things, no hokum on the physics, which should be consistent throughout the universe. Admit what you want to do--such as encourage more industry in neglected areas (lowsec)--but do it using socio-political avenues, not by fake physics. It just spoils the fun of the game.


Disclaimer: I oppose some of the changes. I really don't like the changes to the haulers, which will be a nerf.


So, let me get this right - you are upset that in Nullsec we can get more ore through reprocessing than you can in highsec, although you agree that highsec having higher taxes make sense... what is getting ore taken off you in the refining process if not a tax. It all makes sense, you just are against it because it negatively affects you (I am aware you are talking about the compression end, but I'm fairly certain that doesn't differ my sec status, but even if it does, yet again, your ore is being taken away as part of that tax you completely believe makes sense).
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#19 - 2014-05-19 11:29:49 UTC
Then you have environmental protection issues, employee safety issues, union payments, etc, etc.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#20 - 2014-05-19 11:40:47 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Then you have environmental protection issues, employee safety issues, union payments, etc, etc.

Health and Safety are bloody everywhere Shocked

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
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