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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#881 - 2014-05-18 18:53:57 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you don't know how to launder your loot with the fleet hangar in an Orca, you really shouldn't be ganking. the freighters picking up the loot are as safe as a baby in its mother womb


Could you explain to me how you pick up a freight package of, let's say 200.000m3 without either your Orca or your Freighter pilot going suspect?


Especially since, by definition, the gankers themselves are unable to protect their looting ship since they are all in station waiting out criminal timers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#882 - 2014-05-18 18:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you don't know how to launder your loot with the fleet hangar in an Orca
You mean the one that can't fit many of the things that a freighter will carry? Yeah, no. That's not a very good way of doing things. Oh and hey, it doesn't remove the risk of the freighter getting ganked by the way.

Agh. Quote limit. Let's do it this way.
Digger Pollard wrote:
1. Target is a freighter - zero tanking variety.
2. It must be sitting on top of a freighter or they won't make it to counter gank.
3. Gank fleets being ganked are simply impossible
4. There are things like freight containers you can deploy from your freighter and put stuff there with another account
5. Loot fairy? You can't have it both ways in a single occurrence, but you WILL have it both ways in a long run

1. Incorrect.
2. Incorrect.
3. Incorrect.
4. Wow. Actually correct, assuming the loot is small enough, which is far from guaranteed. So as a general statement, incorrect. It doesn't remove it as a risk factor though. After all, people around here claim that freighter ganks happen for all kinds of reasons…
5. Which means it's an indisputable risk.

Quote:
So with those answers in mind, I feel pretty confident than the only real risk in ganking is being worse than my dog at eve.
In other words, you are fundamentally ignorant about everything even remotely related to ganks and even more clueles about risk as a concept.
Dave Stark
#883 - 2014-05-18 18:55:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you don't know how to launder your loot with the fleet hangar in an Orca, you really shouldn't be ganking. the freighters picking up the loot are as safe as a baby in its mother womb


Could you explain to me how you pick up a freight package of, let's say 200.000m3 without either your Orca or your Freighter pilot going suspect?


Especially since, by definition, the gankers themselves are unable to protect their looting ship since they are all in station waiting out criminal timers.

even more so that you can't even put 200k m3 in an orca....
Mag's
Azn Empire
#884 - 2014-05-18 18:57:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you don't know how to launder your loot with the fleet hangar in an Orca, you really shouldn't be ganking. the freighters picking up the loot are as safe as a baby in its mother womb


Could you explain to me how you pick up a freight package of, let's say 200.000m3 without either your Orca or your Freighter pilot going suspect?


Especially since, by definition, the gankers themselves are unable to protect their looting ship since they are all in station waiting out criminal timers.

even more so that you can't even put 200k m3 in an orca....
Unless it's a magic Orca. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#885 - 2014-05-18 18:57:46 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:


So with those answers in mind, I feel pretty confident than the only real risk in ganking is being worse than my dog at eve.



u say that as if avoiding ganks requires u to be better at playing the game than a dog.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#886 - 2014-05-18 18:57:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So tell us, how do you spot a booster ship that can be active anywhere in the system?

Right after you tell us how booster ship boosts hull tank of a freighter.

...all right, I'll tell you anyway - you fit a ship scanner with a cargo scanner on your NPC scanning alt you scan freighters with. With amount of non-hull tank on a freighter, it's gotta be active all the time or it'll be too late. Not to mention that a booster will not boost freighter ehp more than 1%-2%, which is negligible.
M'uva Wa'eva
Black Frog Logistics
Red-Frog
#887 - 2014-05-18 18:58:27 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Did anyone take a look at that post I made a while back suggesting the use of subsystems instead of rigs? It would allow Freighters & JFs to be customized differently, permit JFs to be given rage / fuel consumption modifications without affecting any other capitals and avoid needing an across-the-board nerf to prevent freighters from over-excelling in any one area because the trade-offs are built into the subsystems.

Seems like an elegant solution to many of the concerns raised in this thread.


Yes, that's a much more elegant solution than I suggested regarding customisability via slots. I'd be very happy if it could be adopted as a route forward. Obviously it'd push the changes to freighters and jump freighters back a monthly release or two, but that would be worth it to enable a properly thought-out solution and giving pilots the true customisation that would help the humble freighter to shine.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#888 - 2014-05-18 19:00:30 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Whats with this 500,000 freighter pilots? Did you even bother to read what I said?

Also please post said empty freighters.


Yes, I did indeed read what you posted earlier, and what I quoted in one of my previous posts:

baltec1 wrote:
We worked out that there are greater chances of you being struck by lightning in RL than getting ganked. Unless you do something silly like stuffing 10 billion in the hold.


However, first things first. I am unsure whether the forum allows direct KB links from this discussion, so you will have to look up the candidates I dug out for you: KillID: 23370943, 23370340, 23342061, 23317011 and 23261890. Please let me know if you are having difficulties using these numbers, and I will try to guide you.

These suicide ganks took place in Isanamo in the month of May 2014, and where the freighter was either completely empty, or very nearly so, to the point where there was no hope of making a profit from the gank. Additionally the pilots were all in NPC corporations, so these kills cannot be explained as being due to pilot error during live wardecs.

There were many more ganks in Isanamo in May, but the pilot was either in a player corp, or the cargo wasn't empty.

Please let me know if you are with me so far. Don't worry, we will take this in small steps, so I don't loose you along the way. Big smile


The average month sees around 30 to 40 ganks. Now, we dont work out the chance based on per pilot but per trip and we do not include people who made themselves a target by stuffing billions in the hold. There are millions of trips made by Freighters each and every month. Over the span of the last decade, taking into account the number of freighter trips made the numbers work out as being much lower than being struck by lightning. Granted you are still more likely to be ganked than win the lottery.

This is what you ignored.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#889 - 2014-05-18 19:00:37 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
Not to mention that a booster will not boost freighter ehp more than 1%-2%, which is negligible.

Incorrect. Even more so with these new numbers.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#890 - 2014-05-18 19:00:41 UTC
Mag's wrote:

Unless it's a magic Orca. Blink


That's it, I am renaming mine to Puff the Magic Orca.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#891 - 2014-05-18 19:01:23 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So tell us, how do you spot a booster ship that can be active anywhere in the system?

Right after you tell us how booster ship boosts hull tank of a freighter.

...all right, I'll tell you anyway - you fit a ship scanner with a cargo scanner on your NPC scanning alt you scan freighters with. With amount of non-hull tank on a freighter, it's gotta be active all the time or it'll be too late. Not to mention that a booster will not boost freighter ehp more than 1%-2%, which is negligible.


So not only do you know nothing about ganking but also nothing about booster ships.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2014-05-18 19:01:29 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:


So with those answers in mind, I feel pretty confident than the only real risk in ganking is being worse than my dog at eve.



u say that as if avoiding ganks requires u to be better at playing the game than a dog.


Currently avoiding gank is 100% impossible even for gods. You can make it less profitable, but not avoid it. Losing a freighter, even an empty one, is bad enough to call it a huge risk to pilot one.
Dave Stark
#893 - 2014-05-18 19:02:53 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:


So with those answers in mind, I feel pretty confident than the only real risk in ganking is being worse than my dog at eve.



u say that as if avoiding ganks requires u to be better at playing the game than a dog.


so if you're playing better than a dog, the ehp nerfs shouldn't be an issue since ganks are trivial to avoid. yes?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#894 - 2014-05-18 19:04:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
Not to mention that a booster will not boost freighter ehp more than 1%-2%, which is negligible.

Incorrect. Even more so with these new numbers.


I wonder if the best use is gonna be armor rigs + armor boost + slave set now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#895 - 2014-05-18 19:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Digger Pollard wrote:
Currently avoiding gank is 100% impossible even for gods.
So how do you explain its monumental rarity and how people can go through their entire account lives without being victims of (or even seeing) one?

Frostys Virpio wrote:
I wonder if the best use is gonna be armor rigs + armor boost + slave set now.

It kind of looks like it because they're going to end up with an awful amount of armour it seems. I'm guessing that it's to slightly compensate for the assumed astronautic rig penalties, since even Caldari freighters will benefit immensely from armour boosting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#896 - 2014-05-18 19:04:52 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:


So with those answers in mind, I feel pretty confident than the only real risk in ganking is being worse than my dog at eve.



u say that as if avoiding ganks requires u to be better at playing the game than a dog.


Currently avoiding gank is 100% impossible even for gods. You can make it less profitable, but not avoid it. Losing a freighter, even an empty one, is bad enough to call it a huge risk to pilot one.


30-40 ganked freighters a month out of the millions of trips made is a "huge risk".
Narjack
CragCO
#897 - 2014-05-18 19:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Narjack
Not the first to suggest this in this thread but I'm ok with forcing pilots to make a choice in how they set up their ship...more tank or more cargo etc.

But for us small folk out here that don't have trillions of isk I really can't have 1 JF for tank, 1 for heavy cargo etc. Nor will I waste money ripping off rigs every time I need to change. Would rather see the ships have zero rig slots and have fitting options (a couple of low slots?) or something. Then I have to fit to mission. I'd be ok with that.

MORE Align time? Really? Making more long boring activities, grinding, time in warp etc makes me hate a game. This is bad game design. My pvp tune has left BS's behind because I simply cannot tolerate staring at my screen for minutes while I sit in the endless warp tunnel.
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#898 - 2014-05-18 19:05:13 UTC
Somehow i feel that a free for all community channel for bored gankbears in dessies are in order if this patch goes live, the tearharvesting for lost rigs and isk will be enormous.

Wonder how long hisec can burn before the obvious hits..
Mag's
Azn Empire
#899 - 2014-05-18 19:05:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
Currently avoiding gank is 100% impossible even for gods.
So how do you explain its monumental rarity and how people can go through their entire account lives without being victims of (or even seeing) one?
I covered this one in post 901.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#900 - 2014-05-18 19:05:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
Currently avoiding gank is 100% impossible even for gods.
So how do you explain its monumental rarity and how people can go through their entire account lives without being victims of (or even seeing) one?


Somebody other than Tippia should ask me this so I could answer.