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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#841 - 2014-05-18 18:05:23 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
All 3 of those definitions rely on an unkown outcome
…and they're very simplistic common-language descriptions rather than proper analytic definitions.

Risk is not limited to unpleasant outcomes, nor does it arbitrarily cut of parts of the probability spectrum. Any outcome that you can assign any probability to can be expressed as a risk. The higher the probability and/or outcome, the higher the risk.

The risks involved in ganking are so far away from zero that anyone who claims that they're even close has immediately proven themselves completely unfamiliar with everything related to ganking.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#842 - 2014-05-18 18:05:32 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The vast bulk of people will never be ganked.

Stop squirming, for your own sake.

Completely empty freighters are being ganked in Isanamo at regular intervals 'for the lulz' or RP reasons. For your original statement to be true, then there needs to be 500'000 individual freighter pilots active in space at least once per year, just for a single gank like that. Even that cannot be true.

If you have better statistics available than the reference I provided, including hard facts on number of freighter trips made in EVE per year, then I wouldn't mind helping to calculate the exact chance of being ganked per trip.


That, or five thousand freighter pilots in space a hundred times a year. And I'm pretty sure it's actually a lot higher than that.

Anyway, if you don't want to get ganked in New Order territory, first of all don't go there, but most of all don't autopilot through it.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#843 - 2014-05-18 18:06:23 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The vast bulk of people will never be ganked.

Stop squirming, for your own sake.

Completely empty freighters are being ganked in Isanamo at regular intervals 'for the lulz' or RP reasons. For your original statement to be true, then there needs to be 500'000 individual freighter pilots active in space at least once per year, just for a single gank like that. Even that cannot be true.

If you have better statistics available than the reference I provided, including hard facts on number of freighter trips made in EVE per year, then I wouldn't mind helping to calculate the exact chance of being ganked per trip.


Whats with this 500,000 freighter pilots? Did you even bother to read what I said?

Also please post said empty freighters.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#844 - 2014-05-18 18:08:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The vast bulk of people will never be ganked.

Stop squirming, for your own sake.

Completely empty freighters are being ganked in Isanamo at regular intervals 'for the lulz' or RP reasons. For your original statement to be true, then there needs to be 500'000 individual freighter pilots active in space at least once per year, just for a single gank like that. Even that cannot be true.

If you have better statistics available than the reference I provided, including hard facts on number of freighter trips made in EVE per year, then I wouldn't mind helping to calculate the exact chance of being ganked per trip.


That, or five thousand freighter pilots in space a hundred times a year. And I'm pretty sure it's actually a lot higher than that.

Anyway, if you don't want to get ganked in New Order territory, first of all don't go there, but most of all don't autopilot through it.


Neither nor is possible or helps a lot. Their space is "everywhere" and they besiege critical junctions...

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#845 - 2014-05-18 18:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Kenneth Feld wrote:

They could always just make freighters immune to scanning
That would cause a ruckus, but would be more in line with the risk/reward
Freighter ganking has zero risk, except maybe the loot fairy, and all the rewards

Suddenly, there is not so bad idea, for a change. A capital size anti-cargo scan rig. No other capital ship (aside from, probably, industrial capitals) will benefit from it anyway.

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PaulsAvatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#846 - 2014-05-18 18:11:10 UTC
Add me to the list of people who would prefer no changes at all over this poorly thought out mess. All the current proposed changes do is validate all the people who said CCP couldn't possibly do this right and would nerf things into the ground.

To be a bit more constructive: making it so that in order to get *most* of the current stats back, we need to fit T2 capital rigs, and overall performance drops no matter what, isn't going to work. T1 maybe we could bear with. It doesn't really add any flexibility, and only adds one choice made in the beginning, which is a small improvement. But as is you're basically saying we spend biollions in isk in order to get a small nerf or not spend billions and have a severely crippled half complete ship compared to what we have now. Spending billions on rigs is not an option for me, so you could see how I personally would prefer they be left as complete ships as they are now.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#847 - 2014-05-18 18:13:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, bit off topic, but I noticed your signature, Dracvlad.

Wasn't Hub Zero that silly Grr Goons NPC null thing Infinity Ziona was working on before he got banned? Or am I thinking of something else?


thankyou for that little gem.

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Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#848 - 2014-05-18 18:14:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
I want gank pilots to have to scan my Charon to see what defenses (or lack thereof) I have on my ship.

so you're willing to take a massive freighter nerf, just so gankers have to click 1 more button before they gank you?


There is no nerf, if rigs AND MODS are added to freighters it just makes them like all the other ships in the game (i.e. meaningful choice at a cost).

Let me ask you this, what if every ship in the game had no rigs and no mods, you got hull bonuses and that was it?

Would you even be playing this game?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Dave Stark
#849 - 2014-05-18 18:15:44 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
I want gank pilots to have to scan my Charon to see what defenses (or lack thereof) I have on my ship.

so you're willing to take a massive freighter nerf, just so gankers have to click 1 more button before they gank you?


There is no nerf, if rigs AND MODS are added to freighters it just makes them like all the other ships in the game (i.e. meaningful choice at a cost).

Let me ask you this, what if every ship in the game had no rigs and no mods, you got hull bonuses and that was it?

Would you even be playing this game?


alternatively, you could just answer the question that i put to you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#850 - 2014-05-18 18:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
I want gank pilots to have to scan my Charon to see what defenses (or lack thereof) I have on my ship.

so you're willing to take a massive freighter nerf, just so gankers have to click 1 more button before they gank you?


There is no nerf, if rigs AND MODS are added to freighters it just makes them like all the other ships in the game (i.e. meaningful choice at a cost).

Let me ask you this, what if every ship in the game had no rigs and no mods, you got hull bonuses and that was it?

Would you even be playing this game?


What you want would result in an enormous nerf to freighters.
Dave Stark
#851 - 2014-05-18 18:17:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.

a fact he's clearly unwilling to accept due to the fact that he refused to answer the question.
Max Goldwing
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#852 - 2014-05-18 18:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Goldwing
Adding jump fuel rigs wont really change the fact that the cargo size is the only interesting stat on a JF.
If the jump fuel rigs simply reduce fuel in a comparable way to the cargo buff gained with cargo rigs, it will just mean you can choose how much to haul each time at the same isk/m3 cost, granted thats slightly useful, but not by much.

Jump range rigs vs. cargo space probably wont be used, while saving a cyno is useful, in the end isk per m3 hauled is the selling factor.

Getting more tank on the regular freighters by trading cargo space is nice, but I wonder if the HP increase will be significant.
As it is now freighters are being ganked with sub 1bil loads, so they can rarely use the space they have anyway.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#853 - 2014-05-18 18:19:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.
What we need is a thread that proves this to be the case. One may turn up at some point soon.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#854 - 2014-05-18 18:20:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.

a fact he's clearly unwilling to accept due to the fact that he refused to answer the question.

An unwillingness that is baffling since this very thread is proof positive of exactly what we've been saying all this time.
Dave Stark
#855 - 2014-05-18 18:20:58 UTC
Mag's wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.
What we need is a thread that proves this to be the case. One may turn up at some point soon.

it'd also be great if it was posted by a CCP employee to give it extra credibility.
Glasgow Dunlop
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2014-05-18 18:22:01 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Did anyone take a look at that post I made a while back suggesting the use of subsystems instead of rigs? It would allow Freighters & JFs to be customized differently, permit JFs to be given rage / fuel consumption modifications without affecting any other capitals and avoid needing an across-the-board nerf to prevent freighters from over-excelling in any one area because the trade-offs are built into the subsystems.

Seems like an elegant solution to many of the concerns raised in this thread.



And also using subsystems will give more value to sleeper loot to boot Roll

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#857 - 2014-05-18 18:22:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mag's wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.
What we need is a thread that proves this to be the case. One may turn up at some point soon.

it'd also be great if it was posted by a CCP employee to give it extra credibility.
Indeed that would be for the best.

Who knows, we may get lucky? Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Dave Stark
#858 - 2014-05-18 18:23:24 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Mag's wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What you want would result is an enormous nerf to freighters.
What we need is a thread that proves this to be the case. One may turn up at some point soon.

it'd also be great if it was posted by a CCP employee to give it extra credibility.
Indeed that would be for the best.

Who knows, we may get lucky? Big smile

fingers crossed.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#859 - 2014-05-18 18:24:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You may not kill the target.

Not killing a target with near-zero ehp variety and zero tanking variety? Are you worse at eve than my dog?

baltec1 wrote:
You might not get the drop.

As well as getting twice the expected. On average you will get 50%, so it's not a risk in the long run.

baltec1 wrote:
You might be attacked at any time.

Gank fleet under attack? Please! Not to mention that if somebody can attack a gank fleet, he's better off just ganking a freighter himself, but your gank fleet is already supposed to be disposable. At the very least, such an attack carries considerable risk, unlike ganking.

baltec1 wrote:
You own freighter may be attacked and killed.

This is hilarious argument. Unless you're worse than my dog at eve, your freighter won't get the crimewatch flag, and if you said that while not meaning the crimewatch, then there is no better argument imaginable than a ganker who's afraid of a freightee gank!

baltec1 wrote:
And then we have all of the punishments for attacking someone in high sec.

Removal-of-consequences tags are still there or I missed something?
Dave Stark
#860 - 2014-05-18 18:26:29 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You may not kill the target.

Not killing a target with near-zero ehp variety and zero tanking variety? Are you worse at eve than my dog?

because eve is a single player game where there's 0 chance of outside assistance?