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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Restrict NPC Corporation Posting Abilities.

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Marsha Mallow
#101 - 2014-05-17 22:52:13 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
To sell a character on the character bazaar, you must first be in an npc corporation. Otherwise, the thread is closed and we tell you why it was closed. If people could only post there with a character already in an npc corporation, it saves a step in the process and cuts down on threads that need to be closed. We don't like closing threads, but it's the rules.


How would I express interest in purchasing a character if I can't post in there without being in an NPC corp?

It's just the sale character required to be in an NPC corp, but yeah the rules are a bit opaque. Reasons being, impersonation (you're also supposed to send corp-wide mails when you sell your charactaer - not sure how often that happens lol) but also to prevent firesales during hacking etc.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-05-17 22:53:57 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
I believe this proposal to be wrong but I have trouble putting my finger on exactly where. Maybe the closest thing is related to:

La Nariz wrote:
-It provides consequences/content for actions by exposing posters to war declarations should their posts be deemed unpalatable by other players,


This brings the question: are you entitled to retaliate against anyone you don't like?

Please don't start with choices and consequences mantra. There are lots of actions in EVE universe which bear no consequences worth talking about. Some because of technical limitations, some because it's practically unfeasible (So, of course I can wardec CFC because I don't like this thread, right? I can imagine all you guys laughing your asses off. Now, THAT's a consequence...).

If the quality of posts/threads is an actual problem either TOS/EULA should be updated or you should take a cup of HTFU all vets tend to offer anyone else around.


You're asking for me to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the peanut butter, choices and consequences are part of the driving features of the game.

To answer your question, yes I am if I'm willing to make the choice to do so and handle the consequences for my actions. This all assumes following the TOS/EULA/forum rules.

Yep that's exactly what you can do, you can war dec the entire CFC and attempt to bring about a consequence for my posting.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-05-17 22:56:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Over the years I have grown to hate NPC Corps and consider them a blight in our game.

To me a NPC corp should be a temporary place for a character to live whilst changing corps / selling a character / or if you plan on taking a break from Eve but do not want to stop your subscription.

I would love nothing more then NPC Characters not being able to make posts on the forum unless you are selling your character.

I would love nothing more if NPC Characters could not pick up say level 2+ missions.

I would love it if NPC characters took a huge hit in terms of cost / efficiency /refinery etc in regards to Industry and Market Jobs.

At some point CCP really need to take a good long hard look at NPC Corps because I am damn sure they did not want them to be used as they are today.
And yet there isn't a single justifiable reason for any of these restrictions. Which actually demonstrates why restricting posting abilities in the greater forums from any specific group is a bad idea. One persons poor understanding of a play decision or their "feelings" about certain players in no way provides any sort of good reasoning for restricting access to the Devs or community.


My suggestion doesn't restrict access to devs or the community I specifically leave F&I, recruitment, new citizens and bazaar open. It does not prevent the ability to read threads or send eve-mail either so there is still participation in the community.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Marsha Mallow
#104 - 2014-05-17 23:06:28 UTC
Delaying new characters from posting outside of various forums and funneling them into New Citizens might not be a bad thing - it saves us answering questions we've seen a squillion times before, and it saves them having their head ripped off for making an innocently foolish remark/query/request or observation.

I'm not suggesting new players should be marginalised so the vets can disregard or stomp them, tbh I think they should be protected from the baddies and eased in more carefully. Perhaps new players need their own subforums, with gradual interraction with the wider playerbase. I've often wondered why the really obnoxious players aren't gagged when they openly smack new players who really don't deserve it a lot of the time. They should definitely be allowed to post on OOPE though, I think it's the only subforum I've ever seen dedicated to banter with residents worth bantering with.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#105 - 2014-05-17 23:09:07 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
To sell a character on the character bazaar, you must first be in an npc corporation. Otherwise, the thread is closed and we tell you why it was closed. If people could only post there with a character already in an npc corporation, it saves a step in the process and cuts down on threads that need to be closed. We don't like closing threads, but it's the rules.


Thanks for setting me straight - I've never sold a character so didn't realise this was the case. Yeah, the restriction you suggested makes perfect sense, then.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-05-17 23:13:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
I believe this proposal to be wrong but I have trouble putting my finger on exactly where. Maybe the closest thing is related to:

La Nariz wrote:
-It provides consequences/content for actions by exposing posters to war declarations should their posts be deemed unpalatable by other players,


This brings the question: are you entitled to retaliate against anyone you don't like?

Please don't start with choices and consequences mantra. There are lots of actions in EVE universe which bear no consequences worth talking about. Some because of technical limitations, some because it's practically unfeasible (So, of course I can wardec CFC because I don't like this thread, right? I can imagine all you guys laughing your asses off. Now, THAT's a consequence...).

If the quality of posts/threads is an actual problem either TOS/EULA should be updated or you should take a cup of HTFU all vets tend to offer anyone else around.


You're asking for me to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the peanut butter, choices and consequences are part of the driving features of the game.

To answer your question, yes I am if I'm willing to make the choice to do so and handle the consequences for my actions. This all assumes following the TOS/EULA/forum rules.

Yep that's exactly what you can do, you can war dec the entire CFC and attempt to bring about a consequence for my posting.


The principle of "your action have consequence" was sent into the trash can the very moment someone found out they could use alt to "protect" their main. You yourself said you were using this game play "feature" by creating awoxing alt and turning them into sellable character when they get too hot. What's the consequence of awoxing if you can get rid of the characer and then create a new one and start over with a blank rapsheet?

This drive em to the point that there is no need to enforce what you propose in this thread because it is not enforced even in the game itself. When the game stop having loopholes to dodge consequence, then it might become relevant to enforce the same thing on the forum.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#107 - 2014-05-17 23:15:54 UTC
Isn't this game about specialization. We have scout alts, PI alts, FW alts, mining alts, market alts, etc. This is a whole character slot taken up for forum purposes that I could have been using for other purposes.

Also, thinking more on the daft mantra of bringing 'consequences for actions' on the forums, I am less inclined to believe it is about consequences, and more about opening up a whole new forum related meta. A very ugly and terrible wave of silencing and censorship.

If something was done to bring forced mains to the forums, the forums would quickly devolve into nothing but preaching to the choir as only powerblocs, large pirate alliances, and the merc alliances would be heard. For example, dissenting opinions on any wardec threads would be hunted in-game and put under fairly certain long-term wardec by those already in power and force until they stopped posting on the forums. Don't make any illusions that it wouldn't happen. This is Eve we're talking about here.

The only thing that should be expanded upon for cleaning up the very few trolls around are ISD options. What are current rules anyhow for dealing with them? If a character/account is banned from the forums, is it currently also banned from game? If not, then that should be looked at. Along with a much quicker escalation from warning/infractions/bans to a full outright permaban. Troll forums, lose the entire account, including the high SP main.
That's consequence, and a real deterrent from trolling. However it is not a deterrent to differing opinion, which some here are actually proposing under guise of "cleaning up the forums"

Consequence for action?
Forced mains would just lead to consequence for differing perspectives.
Player-on-player silencing and censorship would be the newest meta.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-05-17 23:18:37 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Delaying new characters from posting outside of various forums and funneling them into New Citizens might not be a bad thing - it saves us answering questions we've seen a squillion times before, and it saves them having their head ripped off for making an innocently foolish remark/query/request or observation.

I'm not suggesting new players should be marginalised so the vets can disregard or stomp them, tbh I think they should be protected from the baddies and eased in more carefully. Perhaps new players need their own subforums, with gradual interraction with the wider playerbase. I've often wondered why the really obnoxious players aren't gagged when they openly smack new players who really don't deserve it a lot of the time. They should definitely be allowed to post on OOPE though, I think it's the only subforum I've ever seen dedicated to banter with residents worth bantering with.


This is a pretty good idea have some sort of shunt that directs new players right to new citizens as their main page of the forums. It'd reduce their exposure to some of the decreased quality this suggestion aims to fix and take them directly to resources they can use.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-05-17 23:23:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The principle of "your action have consequence" was sent into the trash can the very moment someone found out they could use alt to "protect" their main. You yourself said you were using this game play "feature" by creating awoxing alt and turning them into sellable character when they get too hot. What's the consequence of awoxing if you can get rid of the characer and then create a new one and start over with a blank rapsheet?

This drive em to the point that there is no need to enforce what you propose in this thread because it is not enforced even in the game itself. When the game stop having loopholes to dodge consequence, then it might become relevant to enforce the same thing on the forum.


I exchange all of that SP for isk and a free slot, that's the consequence of selling it. Much like my suggestion advocates that NPC alts exchange their broadened posting abilities for safety. So no you are wrong there are plenty of consequences for what I do and I would do it with my main if it wouldn't inconvenience our wonderful auth team who are always patient with the people I get from recruitment chat that get their recruitment instructions messed up.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-05-17 23:26:03 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Isn't this game about specialization. We have scout alts, PI alts, FW alts, mining alts, market alts, etc. This is a whole character slot taken up for forum purposes that I could have been using for other purposes.

Also, thinking more on the daft mantra of bringing 'consequences for actions' on the forums, I am less inclined to believe it is about consequences, and more about opening up a whole new forum related meta. A very ugly and terrible wave of silencing and censorship.

If something was done to bring forced mains to the forums, the forums would quickly devolve into nothing but preaching to the choir as only powerblocs, large pirate alliances, and the merc alliances would be heard. For example, dissenting opinions on any wardec threads would be hunted in-game and put under fairly certain long-term wardec by those already in power and force until they stopped posting on the forums. Don't make any illusions that it wouldn't happen. This is Eve we're talking about here.

The only thing that should be expanded upon for cleaning up the very few trolls around are ISD options. What are current rules anyhow for dealing with them? If a character/account is banned from the forums, is it currently also banned from game? If not, then that should be looked at. Along with a much quicker escalation from warning/infractions/bans to a full outright permaban. Troll forums, lose the entire account, including the high SP main.
That's consequence, and a real deterrent from trolling. However it is not a deterrent to differing opinion, which some here are actually proposing under guise of "cleaning up the forums"

Consequence for action?
Forced mains would just lead to consequence for differing perspectives.
Player-on-player silencing and censorship would be the newest meta.


I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-05-17 23:32:59 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
What's the consequence of awoxing if you can get rid of the characer and then create a new one and start over with a blank rapsheet?


The character is a lot harder to sell for one & the new character has to be trained, plus people don't blindly trust new players like they used to.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#112 - 2014-05-17 23:38:03 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.


Possibly because a larger deal of participants there are already involved with large enough entities for protection.
And the other matter is that in there, there isn't very much talk about new features or balancing, in which all voices and perspectives should be represented. The theme in there are the politics to begin with, not balancing and mechanics.

As previously touched upon, I believe we should first lay out and clarify what exactly are all the tools and powers available to ISD. Then we can figure out where it is lacking and could be improved on. It is why they're here. To clean up the trolls and derailments. It's their job to enforce consequence for trolling, not ours.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-05-17 23:39:36 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Isn't this game about specialization. We have scout alts, PI alts, FW alts, mining alts, market alts, etc. This is a whole character slot taken up for forum purposes that I could have been using for other purposes.

Also, thinking more on the daft mantra of bringing 'consequences for actions' on the forums, I am less inclined to believe it is about consequences, and more about opening up a whole new forum related meta. A very ugly and terrible wave of silencing and censorship.

If something was done to bring forced mains to the forums, the forums would quickly devolve into nothing but preaching to the choir as only powerblocs, large pirate alliances, and the merc alliances would be heard. For example, dissenting opinions on any wardec threads would be hunted in-game and put under fairly certain long-term wardec by those already in power and force until they stopped posting on the forums. Don't make any illusions that it wouldn't happen. This is Eve we're talking about here.

The only thing that should be expanded upon for cleaning up the very few trolls around are ISD options. What are current rules anyhow for dealing with them? If a character/account is banned from the forums, is it currently also banned from game? If not, then that should be looked at. Along with a much quicker escalation from warning/infractions/bans to a full outright permaban. Troll forums, lose the entire account, including the high SP main.
That's consequence, and a real deterrent from trolling. However it is not a deterrent to differing opinion, which some here are actually proposing under guise of "cleaning up the forums"

Consequence for action?
Forced mains would just lead to consequence for differing perspectives.
Player-on-player silencing and censorship would be the newest meta.


I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.


CAOD had a reason to have those rules enforced because of what the forum is supposed to be about. Character bazar also already have restriction because of the goal of that sub forum. Cleaning GD for example won't be done by preventing people from posting unless they satisfy condition X. It will be cleaned when the god damn moderation is worth anything. Getting a post deleted because it was a troll is stupid. Let the ban hammer and the kicking boot fly with account wide suspension and you will see the troll have consequence for their trolling without having to put any limitation on legitimate players from posting.

Get rid of the trolls completely instead of just putting a stupid barrier in front of them which they can easily jump over.

Your suggestion would be skirted around by people creating the character "Troller McBadpoast" and parking him in the corp "forum shitter inc". His signature will even read "Feel free to dec our shitpoasting corp."
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-05-17 23:42:48 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.


Possibly because a larger deal of participants there are already involved with large enough entities for protection.
And the other matter is that in there, there isn't very much talk about new features or balancing, in which all voices and perspectives should be represented. The theme in there are the politics to begin with, not balancing and mechanics.

As previously touched upon, I believe we should first lay out and clarify what exactly are all the tools and powers available to ISD. Then we can figure out where it is lacking and could be improved on. It is why they're here. To clean up the trolls and derailments. It's their job to enforce consequence for trolling, not ours.


Its because it hasn't happened I've watched CAOD for a long time your gloom and doom scenario has no precedence. The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-05-17 23:44:39 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


CAOD had a reason to have those rules enforced because of what the forum is supposed to be about. Character bazar also already have restriction because of the goal of that sub forum. Cleaning GD for example won't be done by preventing people from posting unless they satisfy condition X. It will be cleaned when the god damn moderation is worth anything. Getting a post deleted because it was a troll is stupid. Let the ban hammer and the kicking boot fly with account wide suspension and you will see the troll have consequence for their trolling without having to put any limitation on legitimate players from posting.

Get rid of the trolls completely instead of just putting a stupid barrier in front of them which they can easily jump over.

Your suggestion would be skirted around by people creating the character "Troller McBadpoast" and parking him in the corp "forum shitter inc". His signature will even read "Feel free to dec our shitpoasting corp."


Its a meaningful :effort: barrier like I said CAOD quality improved once that change was put in effect there is precedent for it working. If you have a better idea feel free to share it with us.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2014-05-17 23:47:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.


I can confirm this. Everytime I've been banned from the forums it was handed down by CCP.

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Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#117 - 2014-05-17 23:47:36 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Its because it hasn't happened I've watched CAOD for a long time your gloom and doom scenario has no precedence. The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.


Bolded for emphasis, on the fact that is what may need to be looked at and changed then.
I would hope you would agree, that it truly is a moderating entity's job and position to enforce, clean, and provide consequence for bad/troll posting, rather than ours.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-05-17 23:50:46 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Its because it hasn't happened I've watched CAOD for a long time your gloom and doom scenario has no precedence. The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.


Bolded for emphasis, on the fact that is what may need to be looked at and changed then.
I would hope you would agree, that it truly is a moderating entity's job and position to enforce, clean, and provide consequence for bad/troll posting, rather than ours.


As long as we have IA to audit what they do that sounds like a good idea to me.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-05-17 23:58:14 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


CAOD had a reason to have those rules enforced because of what the forum is supposed to be about. Character bazar also already have restriction because of the goal of that sub forum. Cleaning GD for example won't be done by preventing people from posting unless they satisfy condition X. It will be cleaned when the god damn moderation is worth anything. Getting a post deleted because it was a troll is stupid. Let the ban hammer and the kicking boot fly with account wide suspension and you will see the troll have consequence for their trolling without having to put any limitation on legitimate players from posting.

Get rid of the trolls completely instead of just putting a stupid barrier in front of them which they can easily jump over.

Your suggestion would be skirted around by people creating the character "Troller McBadpoast" and parking him in the corp "forum shitter inc". His signature will even read "Feel free to dec our shitpoasting corp."


Its a meaningful :effort: barrier like I said CAOD quality improved once that change was put in effect there is precedent for it working. If you have a better idea feel free to share it with us.


Harsher account wide moderation. Don't probate/ban the toon but do it on the account level. The stupid people will either be gone or have to PLEX more and more account to keep trolling.

The current moderation is bad because the ISD have no efficient tools and the enforcement of the rules is never harsh. Even thread created by CCP in F/I can loose pages after pages of post because people were shitting them up and you still see the same stuff posted over and over again. Why aren't those poster just gone?

@ISDs : To be clear, I am not saying you are not doing your job, I am saying your mandate and powers are not correct for the actual cleaning to happen.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#120 - 2014-05-18 03:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Harsher account wide moderation. Don't probate/ban the toon but do it on the account level. The stupid people will either be gone or have to PLEX more and more account to keep trolling.

The current moderation is bad because the ISD have no efficient tools and the enforcement of the rules is never harsh. Even thread created by CCP in F/I can loose pages after pages of post because people were shitting them up and you still see the same stuff posted over and over again. Why aren't those poster just gone?

@ISDs : To be clear, I am not saying you are not doing your job, I am saying your mandate and powers are not correct for the actual cleaning to happen.


Banning and account-wide actions are completely out of ISD territory. Here is what we as ISD can do:


  • Lock/unlock threads
  • Edit posts that only partially break the rules
  • Delete posts that entirely break the rules
  • Delete threads that are so bad even the memory of them has no value (e.g. RMT ads, botting guides)
  • Be helpful, spread awareness of the rules, and support constructive discussion
  • Contact CCP for everything else


Tools to track repeat offenders are poor/nonexistent, so banning mostly comes from one ISD thinking "huh, I've seen a lot of crap from this one poster" or "wow, that is spectacularly awful on a new level", pointing it out to the CCP Community Team, then the Community Team acting on it as appropriate (and as detailed in the "Reprimand Policy" section of the forum rules).

Basically everything is managed by hand, and the hands are few and working based on very limited information. If you would like to help, please make reports of rule-breaking as detailed as possible. Letting us know via a report that someone is being a recurring problem makes it much more likely someone will look into the problem poster.

Oh, and quick note: URLs in reports are bad. All the text in a report after a "?" is truncated for some reason, so all we ever see is "https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx", which is not useful at all.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.