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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#421 - 2014-05-17 22:55:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Alner Greyl wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Alner Greyl wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
actually something i'm genuinely curious about.

since we've got a substantial amount of people saying how bad these changes will be; where were you all every time some one opened up a new thread asking for the exact change you're all being so negative about?


Nobody expected such changes Big smile


yes they did. that's why half the posts in this thread are people like me, tippia, and half of goons being rather smug.


I expected nerf. I didn't expect such nerf. agility+tank+fuel cost+cargo don't you think that's too much for JF?


fuel cost doesn't really have anything to do with this. that's happening regardless. it's also not happening until crius either.


Well, it does. One change can have interaction with other changes. Both intended and unintended. In this case it could be higher operational costs plus reduced cargo capacity resulting even more operational costs to move the same amount of cargo from point A to point F.
Dave Stark
#422 - 2014-05-17 22:58:32 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
Dude can u please post one more time saying "but you asked for this"

well, you did ask for this...

[don't say i never deliver]
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#423 - 2014-05-17 22:58:55 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

Well, it does. One change can have interaction with other changes. Both intended and unintended. In this case it could be higher operational costs plus reduced cargo capacity resulting even more operational costs to move the same amount of cargo from point A to point F.


One presumes that is intended to stimulate more local markets, rather than Jita > all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Paranoid Loyd
#424 - 2014-05-17 22:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
actually something i'm genuinely curious about.

since we've got a substantial amount of people saying how bad these changes will be; where were you all every time some one opened up a new thread asking for the exact change you're all being so negative about?



Dude can u please post one more time saying "but you asked for this"
We haven't gotten the "told you so" message the first 16 times you have posted it. Ugh

BTW to answer your silliness, when people asked for rigs or modules, they didn't think ccp would play their 29% nerf/30% buff game. Why? I don't know, can't tell you. Maybe they haven't been around that long? Maybe they believe in unicorns? I pretty much expected we'd get screwed.


ToldyousoBot™ 1.01 Lol

There can not be enough "told you so" for such an epic failure on the community's part. Listen to the "trolls" you may think they are trolling you but there not necessarily trolling you just because you don't agree with them.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#425 - 2014-05-17 23:00:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

Well, it does. One change can have interaction with other changes. Both intended and unintended. In this case it could be higher operational costs plus reduced cargo capacity resulting even more operational costs to move the same amount of cargo from point A to point F.


One presumes that is intended to stimulate more local markets, rather than Jita > all.


What is intended to stimulate more local markets? An increase in jump fuel consumption? Don't be silly. It's welfare for ice miners
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#426 - 2014-05-17 23:01:12 UTC
I, for one, like the OP idea.

Now, should I put some agility rigs or warp speed rigs on my fenrir ? Hmm...

I would even say that JFs need another nerf. They had it coming.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Dave Stark
#427 - 2014-05-17 23:02:00 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
It's welfare for ice miners

heaven forbid mining actually generates a decent isk/hour.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#428 - 2014-05-17 23:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
So lets talk about the HPs of a max cargo rigged freighter, has anyone done the math on how many, catalysts / talos are required after the changes? Pirate


Yes. Miniluv has and Burn Jita 4 will be both easier and with higher killmail values.



Assuming full cargo rig on a Fenrir:

You're losing 17500 * 1.25 = 21875 hp (multiplier from the engineering bonus) from the hull.

You're gaining 4375 * 1.25 = 5469 raw hp from shields. Resists effect this, so the damage type is important. Call the resist around 30% for hybrids. so 7110 hp gained from shields.

you're gaining 6750 * 1.25 (hull upgrades) hp, but losing some due to the rigs. So:

Total of: 28000 *1.25 * 0.95 *0.95 * 0.95 = 30008 hp total.
The old hp worked out at 26,563 hp. So you're gaining 3,445 hp from armour, affected by resists. again, call it 30% resists from hybrid damage, so a gain of 4478 ehp.

so, that's a total drop of around 10287 ehp.



edit: oops. only did 2 T2 rigs. now with 3 rigs.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#429 - 2014-05-17 23:09:28 UTC
Hauling Hyena wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Personally this won't affect my corp much but I can see how this can be a major PITA for organized groups with specific cargo restrictions like alliance logistics, red frog etc.


Thank you... this is a major ****-up for our business, so what this is saying that if we want to stick to our 860k m³ we need to use freighters that, instead of 1.2b cost 2b including rigs and will take even LESS (it's around 400m right now) ships to gank...

Yeah, thank you CCP...


Also, I just remembered about the penalties on rigs most likely to be used on freighters:

"This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's cargo capacity at the expense of armor amount." - same for the rest of Astro rigs (Agility, speed). except for Warp Speed rigs which receive a CPU penalty.

"This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's total armor hit points at the expense of max velocity."

"This ship modification is designed to increase shield capacity at the expense of increased signature radius."

CCP Fozzie wrote:

We're planning on adding a series of Hull HP rigs, known as Transverse Bulkheads. These rigs will use the Armor Rigging skill, with a penalty to cargo capacity.


So.... if we want to hull tank, we'll be nerfing our cargo capacity even further. If we want to have either speed, agility or large cargo bay, we'll be forced to use Shield tank freighters due to nerf to Armor. What role does this leave for Armor Freighters? Super tanks with tiny bays?

Anyway you spin it, fact is the trade off with these rigs will be even greater than I previous realized.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#430 - 2014-05-17 23:09:33 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

Well, it does. One change can have interaction with other changes. Both intended and unintended. In this case it could be higher operational costs plus reduced cargo capacity resulting even more operational costs to move the same amount of cargo from point A to point F.


One presumes that is intended to stimulate more local markets, rather than Jita > all.


What is intended to stimulate more local markets? An increase in jump fuel consumption? Don't be silly. It's welfare for ice miners


Making operational costs higher. And I don't just mean for jump freighters, either. T1s take a hit, as if you fit for cargo the longer the journey the more risky.

The whole thing nicely incentivizes "closer to home" industrial movement.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#431 - 2014-05-17 23:09:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
It's welfare for ice miners

heaven forbid mining actually generates a decent isk/hour.


Minimum wage work?
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#432 - 2014-05-17 23:17:54 UTC
BTW, the theory that sticking it to freighter pilots is going to help decentralize the jita market is not even worthy of being called dumb. People will just do more afk hauling, that's all. This won't affect it in any way shape or form.

I am doubtful they even WANT to decentralize Jita. If they did, it would be childishly simple to do so with a sales/tax /credits system.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#433 - 2014-05-17 23:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nex Killer
I have a question about this change the Charon is losing about 30% of its base cargo correct? So does that mean in the BPO is it going to use 30% less capital Cargo Bays? So from needing 105 to only needing 74? Because I think that is only fair with this change.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2014-05-17 23:20:23 UTC
Steijn wrote:
sorry, but that is nothing more than a massive nerf.

+1 massively nerfed.
My freighter alt is going for unsub.
Probably the same for my friend's acc who were training for JF.

"Fozzie happens" (c).
Dannar Hetoshi
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#435 - 2014-05-17 23:21:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Everybody! Speculate now in capital rigs!

Anyone want to buy a Nomad?


Buying all Jump freighters for 4B isk each. Twisted
Paranoid Loyd
#436 - 2014-05-17 23:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Digger Pollard wrote:
Steijn wrote:
sorry, but that is nothing more than a massive nerf.

+1 massively nerfed.
My freighter alt is going for unsub.
Probably the same for my friend's acc who were training for JF.

"Player Ignorance Happens" (c).


FTFY, Fozzie just gave us what so many asked for.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#437 - 2014-05-17 23:26:58 UTC
I am now officially opening a freighter shelter for all orphaned freighters. If you unsub, contract the freighters to me and I will give them a nice cozy home in Tash-Murkon Prime.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#438 - 2014-05-17 23:29:08 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
actually something i'm genuinely curious about.

since we've got a substantial amount of people saying how bad these changes will be; where were you all every time some one opened up a new thread asking for the exact change you're all being so negative about?


Variations and choices are fine. Most of them are already included in the rigs. More cargo = less tank, more speed = less tank, more tank = less cargo etc.

Slight overall nerf would be fine if one T1 speed, cargo and tank rig reverted these changes to pre-patch. This however is a major nerf where if you want to get close to pre-patch #s you'll need to make even greater sacrifices in other areas including your wallet.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#439 - 2014-05-17 23:29:19 UTC
Couldn't be happier.

Also I'm still training for a JF on one account and a Freighter on another.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#440 - 2014-05-17 23:36:59 UTC
The nerfs to freighters is a clever, subtle incentive to boost nullsec production along with the improvements to industry. Devious Twisted. I do recall the devs discussing how logistics is a little too easy a while back (csm notes I think), so that explains these changes. It's also a good way to make the universe just a little bit bigger. It's been far too easy to traverse the entire frickin' galaxy in a short span of time and if people start thinking and working locally, so much the better.

A good time to be a nullsec industrialist!

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.