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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Ari Kes
Western Spiral Arm Mining
#381 - 2014-05-17 22:23:01 UTC
Lyn Fel wrote:
Way to take a dump on haulers Fozzie. Less tank+less agility+less cargo space but if you spend a lot more isk on your already expensive ship you can fix one, maybe two of those nerfs. Not to mention the 50% more fuel consumption coming soon.

I assume that your goal is to spread industry out all over null so that local markets can do everything themselves. Unfortunately, I believe that the exact opposite is what's going to happen. Hauling nerfs are going to cause people to congregate even more closely together than they already do, not encourage them to spread out more. There just aren't enough people interested in doing every aspect of industry in every corner of the universe and forcing people to do things that they don't want to do doesn't generally work out well.


In such cases usually time only tells how things unfold. However in light of the proposed changes, I have to agree with the above answer.
Dave Stark
#382 - 2014-05-17 22:23:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.


Which is the problem in the first place.

They wanted it all, without having to think about it.


they had it all.

guess the grass isn't greener after all.
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#383 - 2014-05-17 22:24:26 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

And we've come full circle, too bad it's too late now. Twisted

Not sure what you mean, but I was never in the hype train for freighter rigs.

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.
Talcuris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2014-05-17 22:27:06 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Talcuris wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


Talcuris wrote:

I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...



because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.


Yeah, but the point stands that there _is_ no choice now. I can take nerfs, but this on top of that, thanks a lot.


u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.


I'm not talking about freighters. I haven't looked at them that hard, but at a glance they seem kind of okay'ish. A jump freighter with ~250k m³? With all the other nerfs and raised operational costs? Actually, now that I think about it, this makes the Rorqual stiff competition for low/null sec logistics.
Well, they did promise to make the Rorqual more useful.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#385 - 2014-05-17 22:27:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.


Which is the problem in the first place.

They wanted it all, without having to think about it.


Or
You can have cargo rigs nerf structure.
Agi rigs nerf structure
Hull rigs nerf cargo
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#386 - 2014-05-17 22:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Batolemaeus
Khanh'rhh wrote:

This is entrenched logic. It means you can import, or you can go fight the person you're buying from for the resources instead.


You spelt "and" wrong. Unless you have found a magical teleportation technique that can move isotopes from regions on the other side of the map to the region where they are needed.
Paranoid Loyd
#387 - 2014-05-17 22:27:57 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

And we've come full circle, too bad it's too late now. Twisted

Not sure what you mean, but I was never in the hype train for freighter rigs.


I wasn't singling you out, but referring to the conversation in general. Just continuing the theme of be careful what you wish for. Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#388 - 2014-05-17 22:29:01 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You're basically saying you're against CCP adding fitting slots to your ship, because you have to pay for the modules that go in them?
I don't honestly know how you think CCP can work around that.

Low slots. No rigs.

Low slots are even more problematic than rigs, and would require even larger reductions in base cargo/HP. Then you would be whining even more.

Freighter pilots were asking CCP over and over for the ability to fit rigs, and they got it. Now suddenly this is the worst change ever.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Dave Stark
#389 - 2014-05-17 22:29:52 UTC
Batolemaeus wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:

This is entrenched logic. It means you can import, or you can go fight the person you're buying from for the resources instead.


You spelt "and" wrong. Unless you have found a magical teleportation technique that can move isotopes from regions on the other side of the map to the region where they are needed.


i thought JFs were the magical teleportation technique used to move things from one side of eve, to the other?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#390 - 2014-05-17 22:30:48 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Talcuris wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


Talcuris wrote:

I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...



because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.


Yeah, but the point stands that there _is_ no choice now. I can take nerfs, but this on top of that, thanks a lot.


u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.


Not by much for an extreme price
Not by much and not enough to matter.
Not by much and who gives a shite

So what was the point?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#391 - 2014-05-17 22:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Realistically all JF pilots in eve will fork over the billion isk for cargo rigs, while paying more for fuel. Yay, whatever. If you can afford the JF, you can afford the rigs.

Freighters get to chose two of the following:
--loooooonger align times. Yay.
--less cargo space. Meh, I never ran fully loaded anyway.
--Less tank. Easier to gank. Yay.

Regardless of what you pick, you get f***ed in the a**. But you get to choose precisely how you get f***** in the a**. So they whine and dine you first, and THEN you get your choice of ribbed, lubed, or dry. Wonderful.
LordShazbot
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2014-05-17 22:32:42 UTC
Holy **** does CCP even play this game. Must not have to fly jump freighters often cause this change is simply asinine. Sweet Nerf bros, keep up the good work.
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#393 - 2014-05-17 22:33:18 UTC
Rather disappointing as I expected.

Probably the worst thing about this, is how predictable this is getting. Fozzy seems to have adopted the, I won't improve anything, unless I make it worse in another way strategy for balance passes, and it is getting somewhat old, and to be frank it is rather an unoriginal approach.

At fan fest you were asked point blank when freighters were going to get some love, and you acted giddy that they were going to be getting RIGS zomg. It's obvious now why you didn't detail these changes.

The reason you have 20 pages of whining, is that people have been clamoring for an IMPROVEMENT, and you gave them false hope that this would occur, then spit in our collective faces with these horribly thought out changes.

You should go back to the drawing board on this. I don't think you will, as you pretty much have shown that unlike other devs, you have little interest in player feedback.

Here are some ideas since both you and our csm reps seem incapable of creative solutions.

Give them a drone bay with bonus;s to ecm drones.
Make it take a focus point to point them, not an alt noob ship.
Give them the ability to remove their rigs.
Give them capital/freighter armor transfers that only work on other freighters (players can create convoys)
Are they capital ships or not? You want us to use capital rigs so I guess so, but they are incredibly weak for a capital ship.


PLEASE do something more original then a 29% nerf and 30% buff. Someone their has GOT to have a better idea then this.
Cyran Reinhard
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#394 - 2014-05-17 22:33:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
T1 rigs are easily enough to bring normal freighters above their current cargo values.

Yes, but I fly a JF. I picked it because of its nippy align speed, good tank, and descent-enough cargo hold. I can restore one of those at a massive cost.

I suppose I might as well dump it for a regular freighter with hull rigs — it should end up with about the same, or slightly better, performance than what I get out of the old 7bn crate. Ah well, it's had a good life and it certainly simplifies the training for the hauling alt I was considering. Lol


Well, Jump Freighters are meant to jump....if you aren't Jumping, why do you have a JF?
Alner Greyl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2014-05-17 22:34:09 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Caroline Grace wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You're basically saying you're against CCP adding fitting slots to your ship, because you have to pay for the modules that go in them?
I don't honestly know how you think CCP can work around that.

Low slots. No rigs.

Low slots are even more problematic than rigs, and would require even larger reductions in base cargo/HP. Then you would be whining even more.

Freighter pilots were asking CCP over and over for the ability to fit rigs, and they got it. Now suddenly this is the worst change ever.

May be because pilots waited flexibility and help with hard job that's not funny in all ways? And what we have?

p.s. i didn't ask
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#396 - 2014-05-17 22:34:09 UTC
Myst Valkyria wrote:
This is the worst change I could have ever imagined. With these changes, the Fenrir is now the weakest, smallest cargo freighter. You've basically made it useless.

You are taking frail, sitting ducks, that cost 1.5 billion ISK without rigs, and making them even frailer sitting ducks....with less cargo capacity. This is not balance, this is insanity. Freightering goods around New Eden is a very risky job. When people asked for rigs, they didn't want to have to use rigs to get back to the place where they were, but with more ISK to shell out. They wanted the option to customize their current freighter. Nobody in all of Eve has ever said that freighters were over powered. If freighters were overpowered, then we wouldn't be ganked on a daily basis. Freighters and JFs needed a buff not a beat down with the nerf bat.

I know that ore compression is going to be big and all that, and so you are probably expecting mineral hauling to become less frequent, but hauling minerals is only one of the many items we haul on a regular basis. Reducing our base cargo hold size is going to impact our ability to serve all of our customers.

Adding shield and armor HP to a freighter does not help them in any way shape or form. The resistances are ***t. The only reason a freighter has half a chance at surviving a gank is because of the massive hull HPs...which you are taking away.

All you are doing is making it far easier for the Hi-Sec gankers to gank freighters. Instead of 15 catalysts they will need only 10, and now instead of having a ship worth 1.5 bill, it'll be easily over 2 bill with T1 rigs, and probably closer to 4b for a T1 freighter with T2 capital rigs (because those are retardedly expensive).

Eve's whole mantra is "risk versus reward." Well, freighter pilots and JF pilots have a huge amount of risk, and not that great a reward. Where as ganking catalysts/talos/brutix have almost no risk, and a huge amount of reward. This whole thing seems backwards.


Think about where the design supposedly came from.
Raivi has always been about blowing up as many ships as possible, and he has demonstrated his hated of high sec time and time again, so these massive nerfs to freighter EHP are not unexpected.

As you say, this will make high sec that much more risky with griefers needing so much less critical mass of pilots to wreak havoc.

But don't worry. While the indy changes were nominally designed to increase hauling traffic in high sec, when the nerfs to high sec industry slowly settle in, there will be way less hauling business for you anyway, and you won't have to worry about being ganked.
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#397 - 2014-05-17 22:34:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

i thought JFs were the magical teleportation technique used to move things from one side of eve, to the other?


Sure, if you ignore all the things that make them not a magical teleportation technique, like the fuel cost, the need for a dozen cyno alts and the soul crushing annoyances of logistics.
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#398 - 2014-05-17 22:34:54 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

Low slots are even more problematic than rigs, and would require even larger reductions in base cargo/HP. Then you would be whining even more.

Freighter pilots were asking CCP over and over for the ability to fit rigs, and they got it. Now suddenly this is the worst change ever.


More reductions to reflect the strength of low slot modules to match the current or Kronos state. No reason to whine.

I was never in the freighter rigs hype train.

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.
Dave Stark
#399 - 2014-05-17 22:36:53 UTC
actually something i'm genuinely curious about.

since we've got a substantial amount of people saying how bad these changes will be; where were you all every time some one opened up a new thread asking for the exact change you're all being so negative about?
Klazktrknuitzksalikamono
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2014-05-17 22:37:42 UTC
These are some really stupid changes.

Hey guys lets nerf a BORING activity with HUGE INVESTMENT and make it LESS EFFICIENT and MORE RISKY.

Capitalized the IMPORTANT stuff.

Please CCP, don't make me regret using my JF to help my corporation out. Why punish teamwork and cooperation?