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So for pve Missile caldari are the win? :X
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Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#1 - 2014-05-17 19:22:09 UTC
So I was going all immersion thing decided to max Amarr laser boats and continue from there.
Right now my Gunnery\lasers (large) is same skill level as Cruise missile skills. Both of those tested with 3% implants.

So started with caldari ships...

Raven \ Raven Navy > pure pwnage > select-able damage type and huge range....
Then tried SNI > even bigger pwnage > got larger range, due to resists bonus and 8 mid slots can use 2 target painters > ROF bonus make this wicked ship like space machine gun that spits cruise missiles.

At any rate also shield tanking seems to hold pretty well against everything (X-l shield booster = 5 sec cycle \ LAR = 9 sec cycle).

Next I tried Laser boat, went for Apocalypse.
After tinkering with EFT and considering I'm using T1 weapons I went with beams.
They got pretty decent damage and sometimes they surprise me and insta pop stuff but...
when I got target farther away from 40km I'm pretty muc screwed as damage drops sharply.
Also noticed that due to the lack of TP anything smaller then battleship takes less damage per volley.

So took my Apoc for test,
1. Vs sansha , lots of cruisers\bc and 1 bs... took long enough. Switched scripts from range to speed once I got into MF range but still seems pretty annoying to shoot down the small stuff.
2. VS Guristas... Heard alot of horror stories about lasers vs guristas but as soon as I was in range I melted them... only needed bit extra patience but once their shields were down it was pretty quick. problem was range... even though they were over 100km they actually were able to shoot me and I had to get closer, to survive that onslaught as I couldn't reduce their dps via pewpew I had to beef my tank get closer and then shoot e'm but in doing so I had to gimp my gank :X

So bottom line seems to me that something is bit off here..
I'm comparing two T1 weapon systems, one is severely lacking in range and damage application for some reason. read alot about not bothering with amarr boats until u get pulse + scorch = if that is the case it's extremely sucks.
So what's the deal with lasers and pve missions ?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-05-17 20:08:09 UTC
Okay you're saying the SNI is better for pwnage than the RNI? This tells me something is wrong with your RNI fit.

Lasers require decent gunnery skills to work. If you want DPS you either use T2 pulse or Tachyon beams.

Frigates are instapoped and cruisers die with a few shots.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#3 - 2014-05-17 20:13:07 UTC
no no...
I meant SNI had even longer range. with same skills I get something like 10-15 km extra range on SNI.
Also SNI is much easier to fit due to 6 launchers vs 8 on RNI and with 2 TP it gets the job done but if it is possible to fit the RNI is much better it shreds stuff like nothing.

And that's the only way? T2 lasers or to gtfo? I'm sad panda...
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-05-17 20:20:57 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
no no...
I meant SNI had even longer range. with same skills I get something like 10-15 km extra range on SNI.
Also SNI is much easier to fit due to 6 launchers vs 8 on RNI and with 2 TP it gets the job done but if it is possible to fit the RNI is much better it shreds stuff like nothing.

And that's the only way? T2 lasers or to gtfo? I'm sad panda...

This is not correct. The Raven and RNI have more range than the SNI

No T2 pulse or T1 tachyon
Mund Richard
#5 - 2014-05-17 20:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Next I tried Laser boat, went for Apocalypse.
After tinkering with EFT and considering I'm using T1 weapons I went with beams.
They got pretty decent damage and sometimes they surprise me and insta pop stuff but...
when I got target farther away from 40km I'm pretty muc screwed as damage drops sharply.
Also noticed that due to the lack of TP anything smaller then battleship takes less damage per volley.

I haven't flown Amarr Battleships yet, but did fly the others.

Guns apply damage different than missiles, and from your post it ain't clear if you are aware of that.

Guns have random damage (can be more than the paper max), and get their damage reduced by angular velocity, but even a tiny ship gets full damage (modified by random) if it's coming straight at you.
Thus Wardens and long-range guns with range ammo can easily pop frigate rats once they jump away 100km with the LMJD.

Missiles do fix damage that cannot be higher than the stated for a missile, get their damage ALWAYS reduced by signature if it's smaller than the Explosion Radius of your Missiles, get always reduced by speed (if it's higher than the exp velo), thus they are best at rats already orbiting you (their orbiting velocity is only half that of their approaching).


Now coming down from my high horse and to the specific case here...
There's a good reason I abandoned my initial Amarr toon.
A Paladin with Mega Pulse Scorch and a Large Micro Jump Drive is a thing of beauty against EM-vulnerable rats, but you have to get there first...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#6 - 2014-05-17 20:27:16 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
no no...
I meant SNI had even longer range. with same skills I get something like 10-15 km extra range on SNI.
Also SNI is much easier to fit due to 6 launchers vs 8 on RNI and with 2 TP it gets the job done but if it is possible to fit the RNI is much better it shreds stuff like nothing.

And that's the only way? T2 lasers or to gtfo? I'm sad panda...

This is not correct. The Raven and RNI have more range than the SNI

No T2 pulse or T1 tachyon


I don't use and modules to increase range on my missile ships.

the RNI and Raven I get around 90-100km range with the SNI I get 100-115Km range.
but that's not the issue.

I'll check out EFT for T1 tach...
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-05-17 20:32:52 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
no no...
I meant SNI had even longer range. with same skills I get something like 10-15 km extra range on SNI.
Also SNI is much easier to fit due to 6 launchers vs 8 on RNI and with 2 TP it gets the job done but if it is possible to fit the RNI is much better it shreds stuff like nothing.

And that's the only way? T2 lasers or to gtfo? I'm sad panda...

This is not correct. The Raven and RNI have more range than the SNI

No T2 pulse or T1 tachyon


I don't use and modules to increase range on my missile ships.

the RNI and Raven I get around 90-100km range with the SNI I get 100-115Km range.
but that's not the issue.

I'll check out EFT for T1 tach...

I hate to ask the obvious but are you using cruise or heavy launchers? Raven and RNI get 167km without skills. Factor in skills and it's over 200 km. You don't need anything to increase range.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#8 - 2014-05-17 20:41:22 UTC
Regarding cruise ship here is skeleton fit I use on my sni for L4s I switch tank\gank types per mission - > ignore the drones switch those as well.
[Scorpion Navy Issue, Scop]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

X-Large Shield Booster II
'Stalwart' Particle Field Magnifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x10

According to eft max locking range for my skill level is 103.5 km without any modules using this hull. my missiles can get much farther then that but at any way this range is more then enough for all L4s.
According to EFT with my skills max locking range with raven: 86.5 / RNI: 86.25
kinda weird but guess those ships meant to be boosted some way with locking range modules or something, considering locking range\ 6 launchers fit and 2 TP I just use cheap standard SNI fit that does the job in timely manner.


Ok tested t1 tach on the apocalypse. Pretty hard to fit ofc.
with longest range crystals on Level 5 skills preset got pretty anemic dps compared to cruise (when u compare fitting vs dps\range value).

Basically seems I am doing something wrong here...

2 weapon systems.. both of them on meta 4. same skills same implants (3% bonus ones). With cruise I shred missions pretty easily even blockade\worlds collide and such with no problem popping stuff over 100km away from destroyer size and up it's 1-2 shots to pop. some frigs are also easy to pop. BS are also not so hard to kill with cruise.

Next is lasers. using beams (which supposed to be long range) I can't even lock target on stuff 100km away (with same skills using cruise I can) and my longest range crystals to hit rats in my longest range do pretty anemic damage.
From all gathered information and my great love to amarr it seems I'll need some T2 weapones and crystals + some pimped gunnery skills in order to make the best of it... but...
Thinking about it might be just easier to get into t2 cruise + Golem and call it a day.
thoughts?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-05-17 20:46:57 UTC
If you want easy mode stick to missiles. Gunnery is more complicated but can be just as effective and more so in some situations.

Lasers work well in Amarr space but due to the damage type your won't do as well other places. Missiles allows you to select your damage type.

Locking range can be increased by a sensor booster or the long range targeting skill.

KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-05-17 20:52:45 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Thinking about it might be just easier to get into t2 cruise + Golem and call it a day.
thoughts?

That *is* one of the easiest ways.
Cruise Golem has it's own bag of issues ofc, but being complicated ain't one of them.

But if you are looking at T2 wep + Marauders, try a Scorch Paladin in EFT, 2TC, Bastion, Cap Booster and LMJD.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-05-17 21:00:58 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Thinking about it might be just easier to get into t2 cruise + Golem and call it a day.
thoughts?

That *is* one of the easiest ways.
Cruise Golem has it's own bag of issues ofc, but being complicated ain't one of them.

But if you are looking at T2 wep + Marauders, try a Scorch Paladin in EFT, 2TC, Bastion, Cap Booster and LMJD.

I prefer 3 TC and tachyons with IN MF. You get more DPS. I know everyone loves Scorch though
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#12 - 2014-05-17 21:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalelmir Ahashion
one of the reasons I tried the apoc was because I planned on going marauder with paladin.
But this little hiccup I got today made me think again...
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-05-17 21:11:03 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
one of the reasons I tried the apoc was because I planned on going marauder with paladin.
But this little hiccup I got today made me think again...

The Paladin is very nice but it's a T2 BS so good skills are expected. Mine puts out 1040 turret DPS without implants. The Nightmare is nice but the Paladin bests it.

I honestly love both but don't expect to mission in Caldari space due to you're only doing EM themal.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#14 - 2014-05-17 21:18:15 UTC
I really don't understand this "do mission in amarr space" explenation u give.
I do missions for the Amarr Navy in Amarr space.
I get LOADS of missions vs guristas\mercs\EOM and others. the bulk of low grade missions are sansha\blood raiders of course but I get all of them even serepentis from time to time so it's really don't matter which space I do missions in because at one point or another I'll get missions vs "non-optimal" targets for my weapon system.

Hence why I trained missiles in first place but the difference is so huge that I really don't get it what I'm doing wrong.
Skills are same level... let's expand here.. all turrets types for pve.
I got same skills for missiles and gunnery and both of them aim for meta 4 ones.
anything on gunnery can compete with missiles? I'm talking here fitting\range\damage. I've seen T2 lasers in action and they are great really but going T2 is commitment on weapon department and before that I wanted to practice with the meta 4s until I'll train them, cruise were cake walk but lasers had me at an impasse... how about hybrid\projectile?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-05-17 21:27:43 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
I really don't understand this "do mission in amarr space" explenation u give.
I do missions for the Amarr Navy in Amarr space.
I get LOADS of missions vs guristas\mercs\EOM and others. the bulk of low grade missions are sansha\blood raiders of course but I get all of them even serepentis from time to time so it's really don't matter which space I do missions in because at one point or another I'll get missions vs "non-optimal" targets for my weapon system.

Hence why I trained missiles in first place but the difference is so huge that I really don't get it what I'm doing wrong.
Skills are same level... let's expand here.. all turrets types for pve.
I got same skills for missiles and gunnery and both of them aim for meta 4 ones.
anything on gunnery can compete with missiles? I'm talking here fitting\range\damage. I've seen T2 lasers in action and they are great really but going T2 is commitment on weapon department and before that I wanted to practice with the meta 4s until I'll train them, cruise were cake walk but lasers had me at an impasse... how about hybrid\projectile?


It does matter where you do missions. I do missions there and the majority are against EM weak rats. I also do missions in Caldari space with a Golem / CNR and I can't remember the last time I fought Sansha or BR.

You're focusing on the T2 but it's more than that. It's the support skills that will make a difference. I wouldn't recommend splitting too much of your focus between gunnery and missiles. You're better being really good at one than so so at both. Something I learned the hard way.

Projectiles are nice but they have the same drawbacks as all turrets. Hybrids are well... best for PVP. I've never been impressed with them in missions.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#16 - 2014-05-17 21:35:00 UTC
This week on Amarr space from Amarr navy the majority of rats I got for missions are anagels \ mercs and guristas.
About caldari space you said you used golem so it really does not matter which rats you get it's same same.

Now, on my T2 argument, getting basic support damage skills and acess to large weapons were not that bad time wise I wanted to try both but everywhere I read online the top notch ships everyone recommends are gunnery based, and many claim that with instant damage of guns missions are faster.
But I seem to be doing something wrong here and I failed to find the sweet spot of range\fit\damage with guns hence why I am asking here...

Let's say I am going to engage all types of rats (damage wise) and I'll be using gunnery based ship. which one will give me the range needed (around 100-80km) with decent enough damage to deal with this challenge eve while using meta 4 weapons? (damage mods are t2 \ tank is t2 it's just weapons meta 4).
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-05-17 21:50:26 UTC
Guns lose damage at range and 100km is far out. You can use a Maelstrom with 1400's but the ROF sucks. With railguns you'll hit but be using low DPS ammo.

Have you considered sentry drones? A MJD Dominix using Bouncers can hit 100km easily. T1 sentry drones are about to get a buff too. Sorry I know you said turrets but just brainstorming.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#18 - 2014-05-17 21:55:56 UTC
I actually got pretty good Drones skills and I'll be able to use sentry drones in 3 days if I'll bother to train them.
In the past I wanted to use rattlesnake but they are going to change it this summer so I skipped it until I'll see what's what after the change.

Regarding dominix I guess MJD with minimal tank is what you had in mind?
and probably will require some mandatory rail guns or something on top?
Never used sentry drones before, heard lots of good things about them but on some missions it seems rats gets suicidal and jest zerg my drones....
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-05-17 22:14:14 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
I actuallyworth pretty good Drones skills and I'll be able to use sentry drones in 3 days if I'll bother to train them.
In the past I wanted to use rattlesnake but they are going to change it this summer so I skipped it until I'll see what's what after the change.

Regarding dominix I guess MJD with minimal tank is what you had in mind?
and probably will require some mandatory rail guns or something on top?
Never used sentry drones before, heard lots of good things about them but on some missions it seems rats gets suicidal and jest zerg my drones....

Yeah if you keep range you don't need much tank. I have a fit at home I can link it. Guns aren't really worth it since you get maybe 200 DPS. You just have to be careful not to mess up with the MJD because the reactivation timer is forever. It won't be as good as the RNI though. When I get to my computer I can link a few fits.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#20 - 2014-05-17 22:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalelmir Ahashion
hmm was EFT brainstorming the Rattlesnake.
actually after summer changes that ships looks even better.
considering I already have shields\missile\drone skills I could probably use that one...

So.. active shield brick tank rattle with 5 low slots dedicated to damage (2 BCU \ 3 DDA) what do you think?

EDIT

ok tested even better...
passive tank rattlesnake.
all lows for gank,
meds for tank.
using cruise + drones for damage.

Tank wise omni tanks and got regen of 262\s now if we do 262 * 5.2 seconds cycle time of the extra large shield booster (which only repair 892 damage per those 5 secs) we get 1362\5s shield repair and it's cap stable omni tanked with better shield rep then x-l shield booster. with my skills which aren't maxed yet... think I'll go rattle O_O
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