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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Rittel
Band of Valence
#201 - 2014-05-17 19:07:05 UTC
Nightingale Actault wrote:
Batolemaeus wrote:
Nightingale Actault wrote:


With the increases to cost per m3 to JF materials from HS to NS, especially low value materials such as tritanium, the localized ore gathered becomes increasingly viable to use in and around the area where it is gathered.


Nobody used a JF to move trit. We use mineral compression. Which has always been efficient enough that it was only needed for t1 heavy doctrines. Demand for those (and for caps) far outstrips what you can mine without continuous interruption and without the huge expenses involved with moving ore from refinery to manufacturing outpost.

The bulk of my cargo is and has always been things that can not be built locally. Or, to just quote myself:

just a few pages back I wrote:

Am I supposed to extract non-local isotopes from my behind? Will non-local T2 materials into being? Found a praying circle to wish for a divine delivery of non-local rig parts? Perform a summoning of faction modules? Sacrifice a newbie in hopes for plentiful datacore harvest? Wish for decryptors?


Yes, some of those items will need to be brought in. Most of those however, are small items (though I do feel your pain with isotopes). Mineral compression going away will still mean that localized gathering of ore becomes exponentially more important. More miners in space means more targets. More targets equals more chances for smaller gang pvp.


Its all well and good saying that the aim is to push miners in to 0.0 but a single ship can completely shut down mining operations indefinitely. The fact is that for the majority of miners null sec is too unstable and risky for their tastes, compression exists because there inst a viable alternative.

You are also forgetting you cant just a freighter from a refinery a couple of jumps away to the local factory station like you can in empire. You need to have a heavy escort and even then all it takes is a single frigate to cyno in a system. Again most industrialists are in this for the risk and the majority of pvpers dont care for the industry side of things.

Like I said in a previous post - stop nerfing and making worse some of the most boring and time consuming jobs in the game. If you did this to the pvpers you would have them climbing out of their pods in man-handling the ammo into their guns by now.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-05-17 19:07:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys also seem to think everything in null still hinges on Jita. Industry still needs work, but to carry on that all is lost and null will implode into nothing because your JF took a slight nerf is ridiculous. Maybe look into building stuff out in null so you don't have to ship in 100% of everything?

Then again that may have more to do with mineral availability so I'm not sure. I think I'll just sit back and watch the world burn a bit.


Get yourself into that DST thread, you are going to love what you see.

Let me put on my scuba gear first.

*dives in*
Aliath Sunstrike
#203 - 2014-05-17 19:07:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Aliath Sunstrike wrote:
Yes you can. Just take the numbers Fozzie is throwing out and decrease the nerf a tad. Make it less painful. Do I need to start pulling numbers here>?


pull out all the numbers you want, but they are what they are in order to keep things balanced when people got the rig slots they so desperately desired.


Last post, to quote a great movie, "Did IQ's just drop slightly while I was away?"

Un-Nerf the proposed capacity nerf to where you don't need T2 Rigs on JF's to match capacity, only T1's. Then Fozzie can look at ihubs and whatever may be small enough to fit in JF's and adjust their packaged size if that is the concern. In the mean time you get rigs, but owners don't ***** about the nerf and it is a tad power creep. And by POWER CREEP I MEAN, some more cargo space, some more HPs, etc etc. It will not ruin the game people. EVERYONE wins / loses a tad.

We get rigs, but we get a slight buff to compensate. I think people are complaining in this forum because it is just too much on one side. Fozzie is looking for feedback. Provide it. If I need to start pulling numbers I will because I know DEVs love that stuff but I have a RL and I am not going to sit here explaining common sense to people that can't think their way out of a paper bag.

FLAME ON. FIN.

Continuous player since 2007.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#204 - 2014-05-17 19:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Tippia wrote:
make them silly overpowered and completely imbalanced.
Overpowered? Imbalanced? Compared to what? LOL. Not all terms apply to all classes. You want to talk about "overpowered?" How about look at the Orca. That's got enough meaningful room, FULL CUSTOMIZATION THROUGH MODULES, huge tank, quick align, etc. That's overpowered. A freighter than can do nothing but watch itself get bumped or suicide ganked? Overpowered? Imbalanced? Ha. No.


precisely, imagine the stat changes the orca would get if it had its mid low and rig slots removed but needed to keep the same functions.

it would get near max cargo as standard
10 second align time as standard
massive ehp as standard
all at once rather than having to fit for one of the three or a reduced combination of the three.

now the opposite us happening to the frieghters. its getting the option to focus its fittings (just like the orca) but at the expense of some other functions (just like the orca).

and trust me, this really could have been a heavier nerf. They could have made it so u couldnt exceed current capacity amounts. There was little need to buff max capacity on freighters, but they've done it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#205 - 2014-05-17 19:11:14 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
Once again industrialist[...] get crapped on. Just when I thought things were looking up. Oh well.


As an industrialist, I actually love this change. Now the T2 Capital rig market isn't just trims and caps, and more importantly, it opens up to a flood of carebears. Since carebears are significantly more likely to bling out their ship unnecessarily (800mil T2 cargo rigs vs 80mil T1 cargo rigs), this all just means more money in my wallet.

My JF alt is getting very sad though. That's ok though; I think I made it a Minmatar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#206 - 2014-05-17 19:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aliath Sunstrike wrote:
In the mean time you get rigs, but owners don't ***** about the nerf and it is a tad power creep. And by POWER CREEP I MEAN, some more cargo space, some more HPs, etc etc.
Power creep inherently means that everyone loses.

Quote:
We get rigs, but we get a slight buff to compensate.
Compensate for what? The rigs are the buff. The nerfs are there to compensate for this and to maintain balance. And no, a bit of power creep is not acceptable because it means your implementation is a failure.

The addition of rigs must be accompanied with a net nerf to the ships. There is no way around that that isn't inherently bad for the game. That's why some of us were against them all along.

Maximus Andendare wrote:
Overpowered? Imbalanced? Compared to what?
Compared to their overall position in the ship ecology. Freighters — JFs doubly so — are not in need of a buff, and adding rigs (or worse, modules) without nerfing them to compensate would make them too strong, too capable, and too easy to use compared to all the alternatives and all their opposition. It's not a very difficult concept, you know…
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#207 - 2014-05-17 19:13:01 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
And they've stated that there will be little or no need for importing where? And that lines up with having certain resources necessary for production only available in certain space how?

Have a think at it again, we'll wait while you catch up with the rest of the class.


Word of advice: no-one cares about your Eve-O likes. You can stop the kugu-style angry ad-hominem rants for attention and swap them for an argument that makes sense, if you dare.

I guess at this point I just need to make a confession: I am smarter than you.

I must be, because I can see that the:
- hell nerfs to compression-importing
- the industry changes
- the fuel changes
- the freighter changes

All add up to weaning 0.0 off the teat of all imports, all the time. No, the announced changes on the table don't do this in one fell swoop, because that would be really silly.

You would have to be really far in denial to have not picked this up as one of the aims of the balance passes. But I say again, you know what CCP are aiming at which is why you're against it; nerfs to importing would hurt your bottom-line more than other 0.0 powers.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#208 - 2014-05-17 19:13:44 UTC
The whole drama is based on bad CCP communication. They should stand out and say "we don't like everything built in Sobaseki, sold in Jita and moved to everywhere else. We want you to build stuff locally. Hauling from Jita is meant to be an auxiliary source of items. Because of this, we nerf Freighters and JFs to the ground, like we did with AFK-sentry fleets and AoE Doomsdays"

Again: I like this change and I believe it will revitalize industry in nullsec, which is very much needed.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#209 - 2014-05-17 19:18:38 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Again: I like this change and I believe it will revitalize industry in nullsec, which is very much needed.


The components for just about any t2 item are of higher volume than the end product. The components have to imported no matter what.

So, you don't know much about 0.0 industry, do you?
Dave Stark
#210 - 2014-05-17 19:20:02 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
They should stand out and say "we don't like everything built in Sobaseki, sold in Jita and moved to everywhere else. We want you to build stuff locally.

you mean, the thing they've been saying for a long time?
Charlemeign
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#211 - 2014-05-17 19:20:14 UTC
Nice to see another utterly ******** update by ccp. Way to go guys, break out the champagne.
Dave Stark
#212 - 2014-05-17 19:22:15 UTC
Charlemeign wrote:
Nice to see another utterly ******** update by ccp.

this was a change demanded by the playerbase, don't blame ccp for giving the people what they wanted.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2014-05-17 19:22:16 UTC
Charlemeign wrote:
Nice to see another utterly ******** update by ccp. Way to go guys, break out the champagne.

The word amazing is censored?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#214 - 2014-05-17 19:25:19 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Charlemeign wrote:
Nice to see another utterly ******** update by ccp. Way to go guys, break out the champagne.

The word amazing is censored?


Damn you for making me like one of your posts. But above all else, I am a fair man.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#215 - 2014-05-17 19:26:33 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

and trust me, this really could have been a heavier nerf. They could have made it so u couldnt exceed current capacity amounts. There was little need to buff max capacity on freighters, but they've done it.


I laughed for a second. You get meager 4% more cargo space for over a Billion more ISK and much reduced HP, or you go T1 and have less cargo, less HP and still increased cost for the ship. That is not a buff at all, that's not even a buffy.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#216 - 2014-05-17 19:28:16 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

All add up to weaning 0.0 off the teat of all imports, all the time. No, the announced changes on the table don't do this in one fell swoop, because that would be really silly.


I would agree with you if this was actually what CCP was doing. But the order of changes is backwards.

First, the components for 0.0 industry need to be available. That is, resources for rigs and t2 production and fuel. All of those are heavily regional, as you might be aware.

If it was possible to produce effectively in 0.0 I'd be doing it already. Spending 120M per jf roundtrip plus two accounts worth of cynoalts is kind of expensive.

Imports won't cease or reduce by raising costs for importing when it is literally impossible to replace importing with production.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#217 - 2014-05-17 19:30:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Charlemeign wrote:
Nice to see another utterly ******** update by ccp.

this was a change demanded by the playerbase, don't blame ccp for giving the people what they wanted.


I am pretty certain this is exactly not what the player base wanted. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2014-05-17 19:30:45 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
And they've stated that there will be little or no need for importing where? And that lines up with having certain resources necessary for production only available in certain space how?

Have a think at it again, we'll wait while you catch up with the rest of the class.


Word of advice: no-one cares about your Eve-O likes. You can stop the kugu-style angry ad-hominem rants for attention and swap them for an argument that makes sense, if you dare.

I guess at this point I just need to make a confession: I am smarter than you.

I must be, because I can see that the:
- hell nerfs to compression-importing
- the industry changes
- the fuel changes
- the freighter changes

All add up to weaning 0.0 off the teat of all imports, all the time. No, the announced changes on the table don't do this in one fell swoop, because that would be really silly.

You would have to be really far in denial to have not picked this up as one of the aims of the balance passes. But I say again, you know what CCP are aiming at which is why you're against it; nerfs to importing would hurt your bottom-line more than other 0.0 powers.

You know who cares about my eve-o likes the least? Me. It's not ad-hominem when you explain why someone is wrong, friend, so toss out your Fallacy of the Day calendar because it clearly didn't explain that one well enough for you.

They eliminated the need for compression-importing via modules and shifted it to compression importing via raw materials. Still importing.

The industry changes provide benefits to production within null, that does nothing to the importing aspect. It is a driver to get people into null. This driver is then effectively neutered by the other two changes you listed. They're big sticks smacking the ever-living **** out of those same people they are trying to draw to null. They add needless expense and difficulty to producing in null, which is going to make it a very hard sell to drag anyone that might shift to null.

You see what I did there? I didn't just make blind assertions, I explained out the hows and whys of what I'm saying- unlike you, who chose to stop simply at "this change totally means this, you're stupid," while also ignoring the content of the post you were responding to, specifically:
"And they've stated that there will be little or no need for importing where? And that lines up with having certain resources necessary for production only available in certain space how?"

You know... the entire meat of the post.

I also didn't have to attack your affiliations to make my point- I addressed your argument, rather than attacking you. If only there was some fallacy I could point to...

Say, you didn't throw that Fallacy of the Day calendar out yet, did you?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#219 - 2014-05-17 19:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

and trust me, this really could have been a heavier nerf. They could have made it so u couldnt exceed current capacity amounts. There was little need to buff max capacity on freighters, but they've done it.


I laughed for a second. You get meager 4% more cargo space for over a Billion more ISK and much reduced HP, or you go T1 and have less cargo, less HP and still increased cost for the ship. That is not a buff at all, that's not even a buffy.


im surprised it took u a second to realise ur wrong and stop laughing.

max possible capacity has gone up. more than 4% for T1 freighters. perhaps freighters over all havent been buffed, but they didnt need a buff. In the respects of max capacity alone, yes, yes they have been buffed.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Scarlet Thellere
Natasha Aleksejewa Republik
#220 - 2014-05-17 19:33:53 UTC
I don't like Idea of nerfing tank on freighters. You mean if I want to have same/better tank as I had I need to buy CAPITAL rigs?

Before some number crunching it seems that if someone moved high volume - low value stuff they got short end of stick:

-yes you can improve your cargo but you will loose on tank -get little more money(cos rigging for cargo will not yield much higher cargo-space compared to pre-patch with much more risk

-yes you improve your tank and you move much less stuff with a little more safetly compared to pre-patch, so again you earn less. (whole lot less).

AND in both cases you need to buy some capital rigs to even get near pre-patch values in some attributes.