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Tackling the problem of null-sec ratting bots.

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#241 - 2014-05-17 18:50:26 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


The facts show the most boting occurs in highsec so focusing the most anti-boting resources in highsec makes sense to have the best effect combating boting.


I'll say it again. Really slowly for you this time.

It....doesn't...matter...where...they...are.

It's the same program. Effective detection algorithms will find the botters wherever they are. Period.

Stop trying to justify leaving your null bots alone. They all need to go.


Mr Epeen Cool



Yes and No.

There are a few bots which are designed for the sole purpose for mining and mission running. They are not your all in one bot.

I would wager that most of these bots which are designed specifically for mining and mission running are for the most part being used in HS.


If that's the case, then the high sec botters will get hit hardest since CCP will go after the most commonly used programs. That's efficient use of limited resources and it makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is the argument that null should be effectively ignored just because that's how someone wants it to be.

Going after the most common programs, wherever they are used is not what the biggest whiners are advocating here. They just want their space left alone and every where else hit hard. Going after high sec is not more efficient than going after the systemically most common bot programs. It may happen that more bots are removed from high sec and I'm fine with that.

As long as CCP is being efficient and not high sec bot biased as some of the more vocal posters here want. A program doesn't know security boundaries. Focusing on a sec sector is just inefficient, stupid and a lame justification to have one group's bots left alone.

I have no doubt that CCP spies are on the forums of bot selling sites. They will know which are the most common bots being used and I'd like to think they will go after them without the prejudice being shown in this thread.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#242 - 2014-05-17 18:55:38 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

What doesn't make sense is the argument that null should be effectively ignored just because that's how someone wants it to be.


No one is saying that.

We're simply calling bullshit on the OP.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#243 - 2014-05-17 19:00:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
By ensuring that one part of space is being "policed" more heavily, you would ensure that botting never dies,


News flash: scumbags will *always* find a way to bot in any game. All devs can ever do is minimise the number of them.


And the best way to minimize the number of bots is to target all bots, not to spend most of your time looking at Spot A in the hopes that a bot will walk past, right?


You go after them all but you focus on the hotspots as that will get you more bans.


You're not going after them all if you're focusing on one area where bots exist over another area where bots exist... If you can catch a bot, you should catch a bot, no matter where that bot might be operating.

admiral root wrote:
I'm not qualified to answer that. I'm not an IT expert and have absolutely no idea at all what's involved in detecting bots. If there's a difference in how the bot software operates in different areas of space to the point where detection methods also differ, and if the amount of resources CCP can throw at the problem necessitate priotising, then it does indeed make sense to focus on the huge blob of bots in highsec first.


So you're saying you're not qualified to make an assumption, but you went right ahead and made an assumption. I'm not qualified to say whether or not you did that on purpose. I'm not a psychologist, and have absolutely no idea at all what's going on in your head. If there's something going on in your head that causes you to show bias towards one area of space to the point where you don't want CCP to pay much attention to null sec, and if CCP paying attention to bots null sec would harm you or your friends in some manner, then it does make sense that you'd argue CCP should focus more heavily on high sec and pay less attention to the same activities in null sec.

Isn't that a bit of a leap? Now do I think you're actually arguing bots in null sec should be left alone: no, not at all. I just think you've become biased, believing that high sec is full of bots and that null sec is full of good guys. The reality is, however, that bots are a tiny, tiny minority in EvE Online, and because of this there is no reason what so ever that CCP should focus their efforts on any one part of space, or even that they should focus more heavily on one part of space. They should be targeting bots in all of New Eden equally. New Eden is a very open world, allowing bots to easily move around, and focusing on Caldari high sec would just lead to the bots moving to some place else, causing CCP to have to play catch up. CCP playing catch up means the bots get away with their illegal activity longer and that harms everybody. If CCP instead focuses their attention on botting, and ignores any circumstantial evidence about where they are operating at in any single moment they'll be able to prevent bots from escaping detection by simply moving out of the area being focused on.

That last sentence is likely the way CCP targets bots, and it should stay that way. It should never be switched to a method where botting activity increasing in area A means CCP reduces their monitoring efforts in areas B and C, since then bots in areas B and C would have a much better chance of avoiding detection.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2014-05-17 19:07:17 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Answer my question does CCP have infinite resources?

E: The rest of that post is recycled defecated material answer the only question that matters.

E2: Hint its a yes or no question.


Hint: I answered your question.

Hint2: It was answered in with a yes or no.

Hint3: Do I have to start double spacing everything for you again?


No you didn't and I'll make it even easier for you.

Select A or B.

A. CCP has infinite resources.

B. CCP has finite resources.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2014-05-17 19:10:48 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:

You're not going after them all if you're focusing on one area where bots exist over another area where bots exist... If you can catch a bot, you should catch a bot, no matter where that bot might be operating.


Do you seriously misunderstand the spread I posted?

If CCP has 100 resources and most botting occurs in highsec then they should spend the most resources combating botting in highsec. Hence the spread (70:10:10:10) (high:low:null:wh). This allows them to do the most good for the player base by catching the most bots.

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admiral root
Red Galaxy
#246 - 2014-05-17 19:11:50 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
So you're saying you're not qualified to make an assumption, but you went right ahead and made an assumption.


No, I explained what I thought would be a rational decision to make if certain conditions were true.

Quote:
I'm not qualified to say whether or not you did that on purpose. I'm not a psychologist, and have absolutely no idea at all what's going on in your head. If there's something going on in your head that causes you to show bias towards one area of space to the point where you don't want CCP to pay much attention to null sec, and if CCP paying attention to bots null sec would harm you or your friends in some manner, then it does make sense that you'd argue CCP should focus more heavily on high sec and pay less attention to the same activities in null sec.


I see what you did there.

Quote:
Isn't that a bit of a leap?


Yup, you're really making a leap.

Quote:
I just think you've become biased, believing that high sec is full of bots and that null sec is full of good guys.


I'm biased against people who can't play a game without cheating, which includes those using bots. Highsec has plenty of good guys, by the way - Cannibal Kane, Psychotic Monk, the New Order, all the un-sung heroes who awox, wardec, steal, scam and otherwise provide content every day.

Quote:
The reality is, however, that bots are a tiny, tiny minority in EvE Online, and because of this there is no reason what so ever that CCP should focus their efforts on any one part of space, or even that they should focus more heavily on one part of space.


Do you have numbers to back that up? Can you prove how many bots there are, as opposed to how many CCP tell us they've caught? Do you actually know what's involved in detecting them and, by extension, what's involved in writeing them; knowing how they work is surely key to detecting them?

Why did NPC alts turn this thread into some nonsense highsec versus nullsec crap again?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#247 - 2014-05-17 19:12:34 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:


You're not going after them all if you're focusing on one area where bots exist over another area where bots exist... If you can catch a bot, you should catch a bot, no matter where that bot might be operating.



You do both, just because you focus more resources on one area does not mean you stop looking at the others.

With 80% of bots in high sec and a huge chunk of that in caldari space it would be foolish to not focus on the issue in that area.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#248 - 2014-05-17 19:12:41 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
You're not going after them all if you're focusing on one area where bots exist over another area where bots exist... If you can catch a bot, you should catch a bot, no matter where that bot might be operating.


I agree with this statement, which makes the point of this thread irrelevant.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2014-05-17 19:34:22 UTC
admiral root wrote:

Why did NPC alts turn this thread into some nonsense highsec versus nullsec crap again?


No idea but, this is relevant

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

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Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-05-17 19:58:42 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
You're not going after them all if you're focusing on one area where bots exist over another area where bots exist... If you can catch a bot, you should catch a bot, no matter where that bot might be operating.


I agree with this statement, which makes the point of this thread irrelevant.


You're supposed to be calling me a goonspiracist, angry with the success of goons, jealous of their sovereignty, a factionalism(still haven't figured this one out yet) loving high sec carebear that ignorantly hates goons. You're bucking the trend and that is unacceptable, sir!

baltec1 wrote:
You do both, just because you focus more resources on one area does not mean you stop looking at the others.
With 80% of bots in high sec and a huge chunk of that in caldari space it would be foolish to not focus on the issue in that area.


If you spend 10% of your time looking for bots in null sec, and 90% of your time looking for them in high sec, you're not focusing on bots in general. You're focusing on high sec bots. By intentionally weighting your search parameters so that they favor high sec, you're making it far more likely that bots outside of high sec will go undetected.

admiral root wrote:
Do you have numbers to back that up? Can you prove how many bots there are, as opposed to how many CCP tell us they've caught? Do you actually know what's involved in detecting them and, by extension, what's involved in writeing them; knowing how they work is surely key to detecting them?

Why did NPC alts turn this thread into some nonsense highsec versus nullsec crap again?


Do you have numbers that back up the assertion that bots are more prevalent in high sec? Can you show how many bots there are in high sec as compared to null sec, or can you only show us what CCP tells us they caught? This kind of circular logic, where you argue that I can't prove anything, and I argue you can't prove anything, can go on forever. There is no way for either one of us to prove our statements.

Also, are you actually arguing that bots make up a substantial portion of the population present in high sec? If you're not then I'm not sure why you'd make that statement. If you are, then we can also argue that there are far more bots in null sec than have been caught and reported by CCP, and potentially there are more bots in null sec than in high sec simply because not as many bots are being banned in null sec.

As for detecting bots in EvE, I have no clue. I don't work for CCP and as such I am not privy to their methods for detecting bots. As for how bots work, I've never owned one so, again, I have no clue. I can make assumptions, based on my experience with programming, but they'd be just that: assumptions.

And finally, NPC alts trying to derail the thread are meaningless if everybody just ignores them. There is no need to reply to Dinsdale or anybody else spouting conspiracy theories. There is no need to reply to anybody that is off topic.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#251 - 2014-05-17 20:16:49 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:


If you spend 10% of your time looking for bots in null sec, and 90% of your time looking for them in high sec, you're not focusing on bots in general. You're focusing on high sec bots. By intentionally weighting your search parameters so that they favor high sec, you're making it far more likely that bots outside of high sec will go undetected.



When you have 60% of bots located in a handfull of regions in caldari highsec it would be daft to not put more resources into that location.
Prince Kobol
#252 - 2014-05-17 20:18:41 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:



As for detecting bots in EvE, I have no clue. I don't work for CCP and as such I am not privy to their methods for detecting bots. As for how bots work, I've never owned one so, again, I have no clue. I can make assumptions, based on my experience with programming, but they'd be just that: assumptions.

.



Well, there are what I would say 5 main Eve Online botting problems that I know off which are still being actively developed. There are others but they appear to be pretty dead in the water.

I know of at least 2 major botting programs which CCP have killed.

These programs used a variety of different methods. Some only use OCR, some use OCR and Python Injection, others really go to town on the Python Injection.

There is one bot that I know of which is capable of some pretty insane things, seriously, you would be amazed what it can do.

I would genuinely love for this bot to be taken down as it is ridiculously powerful and has always concerned me that somebody can do some much manipulation to Eve Client.

I am aware to a certain extend how CCP trace programs which use Python Injection, however it is a never ending job as the guys who are developing these bots are very capable programmers. Its a true cat and mouse situation.

I suspect with those bots which simply use ORC, CCP would have to some kind of behavioural heuristics as there are no changes to the client. Again this will be difficult as a lot of bots have random timers built in and if the user is careful they can stop behaviour such as warping when their ship has been destroyed etc.

I suspect it is usually greed which gets these guys caught in the end.

It is a difficult never ending job and CCP do not make their life any easier by allowing people to create untraceable accounts.

Give us our security tokens already !!!!!!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#253 - 2014-05-17 20:19:40 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:


Do you have numbers that back up the assertion that bots are more prevalent in high sec?


Yes, I posted the video showing you this.

Xavier Higdon wrote:
Can you show how many bots there are in high sec as compared to null sec, or can you only show us what CCP tells us they caught?


Again yes, I have already shown you this in the video I posted. I even linked you directly to the times they showed where the bots are located by region.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#254 - 2014-05-17 20:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Do you have numbers that back up the assertion that bots are more prevalent in high sec? Can you show how many bots there are in high sec as compared to null sec, or can you only show us what CCP tells us they caught? This kind of circular logic, where you argue that I can't prove anything, and I argue you can't prove anything, can go on forever. There is no way for either one of us to prove our statements.


"there's no evidence that highsec is home to most of the bots in the game because the only numbers show many bots have been caught, therefore, most bots operate in 0.0"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2014-05-17 20:33:25 UTC
Lok, if you can't figure out if someone's a robot, ask the following in local:

"When Littlefoot's mother died, did you cry? (No lying, bots.)"

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#256 - 2014-05-17 20:38:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:


If you spend 10% of your time looking for bots in null sec, and 90% of your time looking for them in high sec, you're not focusing on bots in general. You're focusing on high sec bots. By intentionally weighting your search parameters so that they favor high sec, you're making it far more likely that bots outside of high sec will go undetected.



When you have 60% of bots located in a handfull of regions in caldari highsec it would be daft to not put more resources into that location.


No. What would be daft is to take a universal bot program and ignore all the space it is used in just because it is used in one region more than others.

It astounds me how you and the other lap dogs can take anything...ANYTHING...and turn it into an us versus them waste of time.

Bots are bots. Remove them wherever they are are found. Based not on where they are, but what they are. Meaning ease of detection and how common that particular bot program is, not where most of them are being used.

I'd be plenty happy to see 30% of all bots removed in one sweep. I don't care where they are located. They are screwing with the economy that I need predictable and relatively stable to pay for my gametime.

Mr Epeen Cool
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#257 - 2014-05-17 20:47:12 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


No. What would be daft is to take a universal bot program and ignore all the space it is used in just because it is used in one region more than others.




They wouldn't be ignoring anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#258 - 2014-05-17 20:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Anya Klibor wrote:
Lok, if you can't figure out if someone's a robot, ask the following in local:

"When Littlefoot's mother died, did you cry? (No lying, bots.)"


God dammit AnyaCry
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2014-05-17 21:08:20 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Lok, if you can't figure out if someone's a robot, ask the following in local:

"When Littlefoot's mother died, did you cry? (No lying, bots.)"

Damn, right in the feels. Sad

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Dave Stark
#260 - 2014-05-17 21:13:30 UTC
who's littlefoot?