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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#141 - 2014-05-17 18:25:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Those cheers you heard at FanFest? Silenced, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in utter fricken disbelief. I fear something terrible has happened.


what disbelief? you've been told for a long time that this would happen.


Told rigs. Unless you were told more than that. Which they were not when "rigs coming to freighters" was proudly proclaimed on stage to wild applause. Or did I miss an announcement someplace?
Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
#142 - 2014-05-17 18:26:30 UTC
double nerf for JF...
Fuel cost goes up in one thread and now cargo and align time is nerfed...

So nox for the same volume, i will pay more and in certain case i will need a second trip...
Steijn
Quay Industries
#143 - 2014-05-17 18:27:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Steijn wrote:
no, to do that you would leave everything as it is and then the rigs let you make it better than it currently is.

That was never going to happen without a counter-balancing that made them proportionally worse.
Hell, some of the “player choice” advocates even said that nerfs would be fine because choice trumps all.

So here we are: the player choice asked for is here, and to make it fit and still retain any sense of balance, nerfs will have to happen. Ask and ye shall receive.


I know.

btw, if anyone cant fly your Nomad and wants an Ark instead, send them to me Big smile
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#144 - 2014-05-17 18:28:44 UTC
Buzz Dura wrote:
double nerf for JF...
Fuel cost goes up in one thread and now cargo and align time is nerfed...

So nox for the same volume, i will pay more and in certain case i will need a second trip...


yes and a big boost to local 0.0 markets... crazy eh?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2014-05-17 18:28:53 UTC
T-N-T wrote:
funny thing what only nulli goons and pl doesnt like these changes))others fine with them


Goons are about the only people happy with this change as it will mean even easier kills for us and even more bloated freighters to blow up.

Miniluv sends its regards.
Dave Stark
#146 - 2014-05-17 18:28:57 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Those cheers you heard at FanFest? Silenced, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in utter fricken disbelief. I fear something terrible has happened.


what disbelief? you've been told for a long time that this would happen.


Told rigs. Unless you were told more than that. Which they were not when "rigs coming to freighters" was proudly proclaimed on stage to wild applause. Or did I miss an announcement someplace?


seems you missed the discussion in every thread for the last god knows how long. every time some one made the idea of "give freighters low slots/fittings/rigs/etc" the reply was "no, let's not do that due to the massive across the board nerf freighters will get".

you didn't have to work at ccp, or be psychic to know this was going to be the outcome.
Nightingale Actault
Borderland Dynamics
#147 - 2014-05-17 18:29:10 UTC
Batolemaeus wrote:
Nightingale Actault wrote:

Additionally, and off that topic, I believe these changes are also a great way to increase the viability of localized nullsec manufacturing. If less items are being JF into nullsec it will give greater opportunity for those items to be created locally at profitable levels.


I did a short look through my "shipping manifests" in recent times. About 10% of my cargo could have been produced in 0.0. Mostly ships and some ammo.

So...how exactly is this supposed to improve 0.0 manufacturing?


With the increases to cost per m3 to JF materials from HS to NS, especially low value materials such as tritanium, the localized ore gathered becomes increasingly viable to use in and around the area where it is gathered. More specialized materials may still need to be JF, but rather than those who are complaining about JF ALL their items from HS it gives more margins for the localized items to be profitable. When you start with an increase in these small items, you give the local economy a foothold to grow from.

A local economy is primarily going to be compromised of these small groups that everyone thinks are now being nerfed, when in fact it gives them a reason to not jump everything to and from HS, and more reason to use what they create from their space.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#148 - 2014-05-17 18:29:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Steijn wrote:
no, to do that you would leave everything as it is and then the rigs let you make it better than it currently is.

That was never going to happen without a counter-balancing that made them proportionally worse.
Hell, some of the “player choice” advocates even said that nerfs would be fine because choice trumps all.

So here we are: the player choice asked for is here, and to make it fit and still retain any sense of balance, nerfs will have to happen. Ask and ye shall receive.


Because Eve-O commentators ask to eat the cake, but hope they can secretly keep it at the same time and CCP won't notice. When they realise that's not going to happen, and changes like this happen, they throw a big hissy fit.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#149 - 2014-05-17 18:30:13 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Buzz Dura wrote:
double nerf for JF...
Fuel cost goes up in one thread and now cargo and align time is nerfed...

So nox for the same volume, i will pay more and in certain case i will need a second trip...


yes and a big boost to local 0.0 markets... crazy eh?


Explain how.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2014-05-17 18:30:29 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Those cheers you heard at FanFest? Silenced, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in utter fricken disbelief. I fear something terrible has happened.


what disbelief? you've been told for a long time that this would happen.


Told rigs. Unless you were told more than that. Which they were not when "rigs coming to freighters" was proudly proclaimed on stage to wild applause. Or did I miss an announcement someplace?


We knew what adding rigs would mean.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#151 - 2014-05-17 18:30:50 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Told rigs.
Implicitly told that rigs will have to be balanced, if you have any sense.

Quote:
Unless you were told more than that. Which they were not when "rigs coming to freighters" was proudly proclaimed on stage to wild applause. Or did I miss an announcement someplace?
Every time people have suggested that freighters be given rigs, a number of us have pointed out that this addition must be accompanied by nerfs to make the rigged ships fit within the overall balance of the game. Every time.

Anyone who has suggested this addition has seen the warning of what will inevitably accompany it. Disbelief is not the right way of describing it. Recovery from temporary loss of common sense or wilful ignorance is more accurate.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#152 - 2014-05-17 18:31:26 UTC
We told you this was gonna happen. Every single one of you advocates for low slots and rigs to freighters.
We told you they would take some of your candy away in return for giving you a cake.
But ooh, did you listen? Nope.

The changes are to be expected, except JF align nerf. That's a bit uncalled for.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#153 - 2014-05-17 18:32:07 UTC
RIP (Jump) Freighters.

Dead Game.
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#154 - 2014-05-17 18:32:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
... My question then becomes "do you think that there is a compelling reason for anyone, ever, to rig for agility?" Jump freighter usage is all about cargo, cargo, cargo. Increasing your cargo reduces the number of trips you have to make, period, which serves to both reduce the amount of fuel you consume and the amount of time you spend running cargo. Messing with the agility only really serves to increase the amount of time you spend doing nothing, without significantly affecting the amount of freight you move.

The only real situation in which you'd want to rig for agility is if you had a habit of jumping to beacons a lot, I guess. Even then, the fuel and time savings of just rigging for cargo would vastly overwhelm the short amount of time you'd save aligning at a beacon.


I understand CCP wanting to make the remote places of New Eden self sustaining, however, when moving from one part of the universe to another [aka like what Li3 has been doing] you NEED JF to make obserd amounts of trips back and forth to move personal/Corporate/Alliance assets. aka undock, jump, dock, then rinse and repeat. This is probably how most people use their JF making anything other than cargo rigs pointless. Even after moving to a new location in New Eden, you still need JF to sell off loot and salvage in High Sec because there is rarely a market for those items in Null Sec. aka the people buying them on the Null Sec market are most likely shipping it to High Sec where there is a demand for those items.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.
Mr JewBearJr
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2014-05-17 18:32:42 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Im all for a nerf of jf's, as they make 0,0 life way to easy. I dont really see the point in nerfing normal freighters in such a way though, as you'r allready seeing them beeing popped all over empire space anyhow.



This.. a million times this..
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2014-05-17 18:34:18 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
These changes are ******* stupid. Can you stop just changing things to change things? It does not validate your work to be screwing up the things that are right when there's other ships that actually need the rebalancing efforts.

Also, again these changes are at cross odds with the supposed intent to make localized production more possible in null- YOU STILL WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO IMPORT/EXPORT.


So your solution?
LOL EVERYTHING USES MORE FUEL AND ALL THE JFS CAN HOLD LESS AND ARE LESS AGILE


Stop swinging around like a 5yo in the dark with a baseball bat. This isn't quality balancing, it's dogshit


From someone taking quotes out of context in order to yell "Goon tears!" just this week, ahahahahahhahahahahahaahahah
Eanna Heart wrote:
Fozzie pls go.

"I want to encourage industry in nullsec."

"Let's make nullsec logistics more costly, difficult, and risky."


That's consistent with the design goal of people doing industry in nullsec, rather than importing everything.

You guys should use your space~~

To everyone else: You got what you asked for.
I'm sorry you're not very good at asking for things that actually help you Blink


While I appreciate that you are talking from the standpoint of an illiterate without the ability to think things through that has to have blinders on to make it through the day lest you be distracted by some fanciful new lie, your point here is still dipshitted and wrong. What is intended to drive industry to null is the advantages contained there to production.

There's not really any effective change that negates the need for importing- nor should there be, since no space should be an island. So no, this is at a cross purpose to what the **** they are trying to achieve by making the importing that will always be necessary more of a needlessly complicated mess and serves as a higher barrier to entry.


But I suppose my simple pointing out of facts will fall flat on your dulled mental facilities and all you'll see is "Grr Goon" again.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#157 - 2014-05-17 18:34:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Goons are about the only people happy with this change as it will mean even easier kills for us and even more bloated freighters to blow up.

Miniluv sends its regards.

Grr goons. Lol

Ammzi wrote:
We told you this was gonna happen. Every single one of you advocates for low slots and rigs to freighters.
We told you they would take some of your candy away in return for giving you a cake.
But ooh, did you listen? Nope.

The changes are to be expected, except JF align nerf. That's a bit uncalled for.

So much this. Especially the agility nerf — it's the only part that threw me a bit and makes me wonder how to compensate for it. Since I'm going to have to join the minions of semi-AFKers anyway, it currently looks like downgrading to a freighter will be the best move, and as a bonus, that frees up a lot of capital. P
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#158 - 2014-05-17 18:34:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Told rigs.
Implicitly told that rigs will have to be balanced, if you have any sense.

Quote:
Unless you were told more than that. Which they were not when "rigs coming to freighters" was proudly proclaimed on stage to wild applause. Or did I miss an announcement someplace?
Every time people have suggested that freighters be given rigs, a number of us have pointed out that this addition must be accompanied by nerfs to make the rigged ships fit within the overall balance of the game. Every time.

Anyone who has suggested this addition has seen the warning of what will inevitably accompany it. Disbelief is not the right way of describing it. Recovery from temporary loss of common sense or wilful ignorance is more accurate.


No need for you and that other genius Dave Stark to be douches about it. But since you've gone down that path, kudos to you for being the sage prognosticators of EVE. Nerfing was to be expected. I think it's the level that drew my attention. Just a tad much. Bit I'm sure your crystal ball already knew that.
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#159 - 2014-05-17 18:35:03 UTC
Nightingale Actault wrote:


With the increases to cost per m3 to JF materials from HS to NS, especially low value materials such as tritanium, the localized ore gathered becomes increasingly viable to use in and around the area where it is gathered.


Nobody used a JF to move trit. We use mineral compression. Which has always been efficient enough that it was only needed for t1 heavy doctrines. Demand for those (and for caps) far outstrips what you can mine without continuous interruption and without the huge expenses involved with moving ore from refinery to manufacturing outpost.

The bulk of my cargo is and has always been things that can not be built locally. Or, to just quote myself:

just a few pages back I wrote:

Am I supposed to extract non-local isotopes from my behind? Will non-local T2 materials into being? Found a praying circle to wish for a divine delivery of non-local rig parts? Perform a summoning of faction modules? Sacrifice a newbie in hopes for plentiful datacore harvest? Wish for decryptors?
Dawn Harbinger
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2014-05-17 18:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dawn Harbinger
First, if the goal of the JF nerf is to encourage industry in null sec why not just limit the jump range (+ the increased fuel cost) rather than just make them worse overall and even less fun to fly?

Secondly, asking someone who has already invested a lot of time and effort into acquiring such an expensive ship to pay nearly 2 billion more isk on capital rigs with nothing to show for it is a huge disappointment. If I'm going to invest that much into a ship I want to be excited about the benefits. Let us gain enough armor HP to take advantage of our T2 resists, let us increase our agility to warp off from beacons faster, etc. A return to the "baseline" does nothing to excite players or show off their prized ships.

*that JB align nerf Sad