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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#761 - 2014-05-16 20:27:16 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Penny Ernaga wrote:

CCP Delegate Zero, you did notice the smileys in my post, I assume/hope.

I don`t think any of my writing contains anything offensive, abusive, or the like - if it did land that way in your eyes, my apologies.

People give feedback because they care - like I do. Do I have to be all dead serious, sober, and without any emotions behind? That would be pretty strange, it`s a game we`re talking about.


Sure. A sense of humour is very important. I actually appreciated yours.

That aside, a couple of questions were asked about the timing of the most pressing tweaks and fixes: the answer is that we are looking to release the initial set in terms of days. We're certainly not constrained to wait for Kronos.

The current list is in my earlier post.



Then do us all a favor and give us an OFF BUTTON. Your new tool tips are great for new players, but are a pain in the ass for older players who click in space to warp to planets or other objects. Also trying to follow a hostile target to another gate is impossible. I am sure you in your extensive Eve Playing days you realize that these tool tips are a PITA more then help.

Eve is a game of seconds, and the longer you take to push a button the greater chance you lose your target or your ship.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#762 - 2014-05-16 20:28:58 UTC
I can understand a new player benefiting from the tooltips. After all, not every single new player will realize that the big circular thing clearly named "Stargate" is in fact a stargate.

But what possible benefit is there in forcing those of us that know what a stargate is to have these tooltips? Even if you fix all of the problems (e.g. making targeting or selecting specific brackets more difficult due to black box everywhere), what possible benefit does additional clutter on my UI serve?

I get the distinct impression that you're forcing this on us so that we can QA test your new NPE. There's no other reason anyone in their right mind would think an on/off switch is a bad idea.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#763 - 2014-05-16 20:31:55 UTC
Let me give you an analogy. Microsoft Office 2013. Many, many people hate it. Why? Because it's impossible to escape the new "improved" metro UI. This is what you're doing here. You're pulling a windows 8 on us. We don't want your metro.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#764 - 2014-05-16 20:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Davina Sienar wrote:
patient explanation of the problems with new features that aren't being asked for by the playerbase.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4602823#post4602823
That sir or madam was a work of art. I commend you, and threw a like your way (but if I could I would have given it 10 likes).

However, sometimes the expletive filled rant just feels better.P

edit - and this is the other tactic that feels good, comedy.
Doc Fury wrote:
Saw this posted in chat, it comically and quite accurately conveys how many are viewing this.


2nd edit - and oh btw there might be some more "constructive" and different feedback in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4586938#post4586938
but I suspect it is just an underline on the reaction you are getting here. Smile

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#765 - 2014-05-16 20:45:43 UTC
bout the NPE..

sorry but when I started 2005 there was no ToolTip telling me that the Stargate Icon is a Stargate..

and I'm pretty sure within 5min in Space after first undock You know what Icon is what
just by reading the column behind the icon and the old info on mouseover


Shocked
ViRtUoZone
Spitfire Syndicate
#766 - 2014-05-16 20:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Virtuozone
So there's still not gonna be an off button? Respond quickly if you would please, my account resubs soon.

P.S. Whoever is in CCP that's insisting that this is a good idea after your post now has more than 30 pages of people asking for a simple off switch needs to be fired.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#767 - 2014-05-16 20:59:54 UTC
ViRtUoZone wrote:
So there's still not gonna be an off button? Respond quickly if you would please, my account resubs soon.

read this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3140258#post3140258

We could be waiting a very long time. Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#768 - 2014-05-16 21:05:14 UTC
Clicking to select a wreck from a freshly-killed victim is now difficult. It seems to be buried behind all the other stuff (particularly my own ship). Can you change the 'order's around a bit? I almost always want to click something else rather than my own ship.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#769 - 2014-05-16 21:19:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


In the mean time we welcome more input, it's been very helpful so far. As Rubberband said, we are especially focused on figuring out the best possible version of the in-space list. We definitely underestimated the impact of making changes to this piece of UI but we are extremely committed to finding an implementation that works for everyone.

Thanks again


No offense mate, but "best possible solution to an in space list " is a simply an oxymoron. There is no "best in space list"--unless the game is "spreadsheets with space backgrounds simulator." Plus, we already have an in space list... it is called the UI. You have almost 40 pages now of players saying the revert the changes back--so just drop the sunk cost fallacy and start from scratch based on what you know now.

Like CCP RubberBand said: " The long term goal is to try and remove a linear tutorial experience as it currently exists in game and instead replace it with a sandbox tutorial that players can understand by just playing and interacting with the world."
But what you have instead created is a system where players interact with boxes of text, not the world. It is like you took the CCP Rise presentation and decided to contradict every one of the goals he outlined therein.

Many screenshots of problems have been posted but again no possible tweaks are going to make a freaking list in space "good" for any player: http://i.imgur.com/mik0Mw4.jpg
How much clearer do players have to make this to get through to you devs?
Jimmy Prophet
State War Academy
Caldari State
#770 - 2014-05-16 22:00:20 UTC
Just a quick one. While using the look at option in the selected items menu. I hovered over a ship with my mouse and i was unable to Zoom in or Out because my mouse cursor had slightly moved over said obsecuring black box of text and i mean the very bottom of the V shape. This inhibited my game play due to the fact i could not see the positioning of other items in space in relation to what i was looking at.
Josie solo
Singular Motives
#771 - 2014-05-16 22:08:26 UTC
It's great you are seeking feedback but the popups, for example on the overview, still remain despite it showing redundant information.

I'm interested in the thinking behind this idea. I Understand that for new players having a pop-up telling you 'this icon is the cargohold' or 'this is your inventory, it shows all your assets', is useful the first few times but no-one needs it after that. So why is it not a time limited thing like the rookie chat?

As for the big slightly less opaque text boxes; can you try making them totally clear. It really is a clunky way of presenting information.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#772 - 2014-05-16 22:27:58 UTC
What a shitfest.

Somebody seriously needs to learn how to do customer service.

You know the worst thing about this? Behind the scenes CCP is saying if we give them 40% of how it was before, they will shut up and deal with it.

They are right as well. We just carry on sucking this **** up.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#773 - 2014-05-16 23:59:23 UTC
it would be nice if the tooltips for hangars/bays in the left side of the unified inventory could display the distance to bays where distance is meaningful.

Thus if I am flying an Orca and am interacting with another Orca, the tooltips for my own Orca's Drone Bay, Ship Maintenance Bay, Fleet Hangar and Ore Hold might indicate that they are part of my ship (or preferably have no indication at all), with an indication of how full they are. The fleet hangar on the other Orca would have a tooltip that indicates the other Orca is 6540m away, and perhaps includes an indication of how full it is.

I have found many of the tooltips to be useful, though there are some situations where they obscure what I want to be interacting with.

Thank you for adding this feature, I'm looking forward to seeing some refinements to the system very soon =)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2014-05-17 01:26:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We definitely underestimated the impact of making changes to this piece of UI but we are extremely committed to finding an implementation that works for everyone.

Thanks again

you will never be bale to satisfy everyone, unless you actually do a very basic thing:

introduce an ON/OFF switch

you will ALWAYS have ppl who will hate such things...always!

so man up, accept you made a mistake, and fix it :)

and by the way, the new revision is still preventing ANY kind of pvp activity, so we are stuck at least until tuesday with this awfull design.

and knowing the way you operate, it will be YEARS before we actually get what is REALLY needed, you guessed: the ON/OFF switch.

this attitude has to stop at CCP, really, it's just immature.....
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#775 - 2014-05-17 01:37:12 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Please, CCP, for the love of all that is holy, please do not listen to the users on what the UI should look like. I bring you the first rule of usability:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/first-rule-of-usability-dont-listen-to-users/

Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players. You can expand this to all sorts of things.

Existing players, please don't presume that putting tooltips on things is trying to insult you. You're all super hardcore and the tooltips aren't saying otherwise. The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen (again UX hat on).

So please, CCP, iterate away. Deal with the issues at hand and continue to improve the client. It's certainly going to mean that when I try and get people to play, I'm not going to have to answer a never-ending sequence of questions that the UI really should already tell them.

And finally, for all the players complaining about the overview telling you it's a station, if the name of something in the overview is something like Xxx Trade Hub and the Type is Xxx Hub, and the symbol is a square, how is a new player supposed to automatically know that that item is a station? For those claiming that CCP didn't think about the play experience, it's just about as bad to presume that every player knows what every symbol is.


Have you ever even undocked?

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Oraac Ensor
#776 - 2014-05-17 01:51:28 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Colman Dietmar wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
The overview already says this, I just have the name column small.

And it's nice to be able to see the full name without resizing the column or opening the info window. :)
It should, however, appear outside the window you're working with.

You can click on the overview, and you get the full name.

That applies to everything affected by the tooltips.

The point of tooltips in the overview is that you don’t have to click the item to see its full identity – just hover your pointer over it (just as it used to happen under the old system). Then you can quickly run your pointer down a list of stations to find and click the one you want.
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#777 - 2014-05-17 01:55:16 UTC
Quote:
As a final point we work under the assumption that nobody knows everything and so the tooltips are ultimately always valuable to someone at some point (new players and veterans alike).


Assumption is the mother of all **** ups!!

how hard is it to listen to the player base? all we ask is a button or check box

Solution roll back fix some issues implement an on/of , this should be an option from day one of introducing a new thing to the game.

pvp is badly influenced by the tooltips
a corp member lost a exploration tengu in low because he was unable to warp away!! guess why? tooltip hovering over the warp button.

helping new players seriously i have read multiple posts of rookies having problems
and then the stupid tooltips? seriously? mouse over the X button "close"thanks sherlock thats great i now know how to close a menu.

I gladly go on the test server doing what ever the hell to test stuff and advice what to tinker with as long as we get an on/off ASAP!!!
but dont patronise us with a long piece of excuses and a cheap go **** yourself towards the playerbase!, thats just rude.

Dont forget incarna! maybe read the monument of jita Hint Hint!!
dont rollback to these kind of mistakes and start listening to us the people that at the end of the month give you and your family food on the table

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Oraac Ensor
#778 - 2014-05-17 02:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Quintessen wrote:

In this case I'm guessing we got different things from the Fanfest session. My comments are with the understanding that they wish to get rid of the text tutorials.

So are mine:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
CCP Rise doesn’t say they want to get rid of the tutorials, plural (in fact he quite specifically says they have no intention of touching the career tutorials), but says they want to replace the introductory tutorial with a different form of tutorial which presents information in a more general, more involving manner – primarily by getting rid of all the text boxes.

But it seems that we did indeed get different things from CCP Rise’s Fanfest session.

What I got from it is very concisely described by CCP RubberBAND here.
Oraac Ensor
#779 - 2014-05-17 02:20:56 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
It's just a game after all right?

Which we PAY for in the expectation of getting a reasonably professional job in return.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#780 - 2014-05-17 02:30:57 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.
Underlined the part we are all waiting for because your response is not a simple yes or no. How about you guys stop beating around the bush and tell the playerbase straight.

A) Yes. You guys will be getting an optional on/off switch for these tool tips because we value your thoughts and options.

B) No, you can't have the tool tips optional so go get rammed and stop ******* asking.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."