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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#561 - 2014-05-16 20:47:09 UTC
i forgot to switch the skills :S

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo0 and cdo5 is getting free t2 drones, do we?

i mean, ****. do we. 'cos that's just as funny
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#562 - 2014-05-16 20:47:59 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
People who have SDO 1 + CDO 5 however will be gifted access to Racial Spec which is also poor implementation in terms of "fairness and equality"

fairer than removing their access to what they can fly or gifting sp for an ability that wasn't removed.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#563 - 2014-05-16 20:48:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

i think it's hilarious is what it's got to do with this

it's players who trained mining barge v to unlock orcas complaining that someone else can unlock orcas without mining barge v.

Was Mining Barge removed from the game? No.

no, but people're still complaining about ~loss of advantage~ and demanding reimbursement.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#564 - 2014-05-16 20:49:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
What's missing from your analysis is that the skill effect you train for is "an advantage over players who don't have the skill", and "an equal bonus with those that do". The first of these effects is being removed, so no, you are not getting the "full effect".

no, the skill effect you train for is '5% drone damage'. you'll still have that.
Quote:

Question: is there a skill right now, which put in a skill queue, will be completely wasted? If I have SDO V now, and I put CDO in my skill queue, am I not wasting it? Ask yourself: *would you put it in your skill queue?* If there ANY good reason to put it in your skill queue now? No.

yes. 5% drone damage.

Quote:
You've got to be trolling. This is in no way remotely similar to the BC/Destroyer change, this is in no way similar to the changes to Command Ships or Capitals. CCP didn't give anyone free skills in these scenarios.

all are part of their standing policy of 'what you can fly today you can fly tomorrow'.

Quote:
I'm advocating that those who trained CDO5 be reimbursed in some fashion because of the lack of need to train the CDO5 skill but still acquire the same advantage.

ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?


5% drone damage relative to what? It's not just 5% damage. It's 5% damage *relative to if you had not trained the skill*. The last sentence is obviously true, because if it wasn't, there would be no reason to train it! 5% damage relative to nothing has no meaning.

Now to say again, you are not getting the "full effect", which is "5% damage relative to if you had not trained the skill", or alternatively "a damage difference relative to everyone else". This is why it makes no sense to train the skill, because that "full effect" will be lost after the patch.

Did this clarify my point, or is there still a problem with it?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#565 - 2014-05-16 20:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
No loss since they still had something the others didn't, namely Mining Barge V and everything that came with it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mario Putzo
#566 - 2014-05-16 20:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
People who have SDO 1 + CDO 5 however will be gifted access to Racial Spec which is also poor implementation in terms of "fairness and equality"

fairer than removing their access to what they can fly or gifting sp for an ability that wasn't removed.


Then maybe CCP should just give everyone level 5 in all skills since training them is apparently irrelevant in determining if one should or should not gain access to a skill effect.

Come on guy, troll harder.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#567 - 2014-05-16 20:56:14 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.


And it is the mechanism that decides if you can use a module / rig/ hull and how powerful that item is.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#568 - 2014-05-16 21:01:20 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage


Well duh, thats why people are upset with the intended change. Are you a rocket scientist?


then they're asking to be special-cased and they don't deserve attention.


No they are asking that CCP allow them to keep the advantage they trained for, or reimburse them because that advantage is being given away for "free".

The special cases are the guys who only have SDO trained to 5 but will log in after patch day with drones acting like they have both SDO and CDO to 5. Is it so wrong for people to want to maintain their combat advantage or be able to apply that advantage elsewhere when a group of people are being gifted the exact same skill set despite not having invested the training time to attain it?


Oh boo hoo. I lost a combat advantage when they nerfed heavy missiles 2 years ago. Did I get reimbursed SP? No. I did not. Get over yourself. SP is not an indication on how good you are at this game. I see low SP characters beat high SP characters all the time. Let a newbro buy an account with 100mil SP, and you will most likely see him lose a carrier because he didn't know the mechanics. I would rather test my skills against someone who has low SP and knows the mechanics and knows how to manually fly his ship; versus someone who knows shite about the mechanics and manually flying, but has a 100mil SP.
Dave stark
#569 - 2014-05-16 21:03:27 UTC
how is this thread still going?
Alli Ginthur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#570 - 2014-05-16 21:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Alli Ginthur
Estella Osoka wrote:


Oh boo hoo. I lost a combat advantage when they nerfed heavy missiles 2 years ago. Did I get reimbursed SP? No. I did not. Get over yourself. SP is not an indication on how good you are at this game. I see low SP characters beat high SP characters all the time. Let a newbro buy an account with 100mil SP, and you will most likely see him lose a carrier because he didn't know the mechanics. I would rather test my skills against someone who has low SP and knows the mechanics and knows how to manually fly his ship; versus someone who knows shite about the mechanics and manually flying, but has a 100mil SP.


Except in that case it was the weapon system that got its effectiveness reduced, not the skills that went into it. If you trained a higher level of heavy missile or heavy missile spec than someone, you retained that percentage advantage after the nerf. What combat advantage does a SDO 5/CDO 5 character retain over a SDO 5/CDO 0 character after the patch? None.
Mario Putzo
#571 - 2014-05-16 21:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Estella Osoka wrote:
[
Oh boo hoo. I lost a combat advantage when they nerfed heavy missiles 2 years ago. Did I get reimbursed SP? No. I did not. Get over yourself. SP is not an indication on how good you are at this game. I see low SP characters beat high SP characters all the time. Let a newbro buy an account with 100mil SP, and you will most likely see him lose a carrier because he didn't know the mechanics. I would rather test my skills against someone who has low SP and knows the mechanics and knows how to manually fly his ship; versus someone who knows shite about the mechanics and manually flying, but has a 100mil SP.


Why would you get SP for a mechanics change? The HML change had nothing to do with skills and impacted people the same whether they had 5/5 or were 1/5.

Its not about the SP number, its about the benefits being given to people who have not trained the skill, and it is applicable not only to SDO 5/ CDO 0, but the inverse as well, or any combination there in. Giving people the same skills based on the level of one skill as people with 2 skills is poor implementation.

God damn.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#572 - 2014-05-16 21:11:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No loss since they still had something the others didn't.

true, though most of them denied ever having used barges or intent to use them. (horseshit)

Quote:
5% drone damage relative to what? It's not just 5% damage. It's 5% damage *relative to if you had not trained the skill*. The last sentence is obviously true, because if it wasn't, there would be no reason to train it! 5% damage relative to nothing has no meaning.

Now to say again, you are not getting the "full effect", which is "5% damage relative to if you had not trained the skill", or alternatively "a damage difference relative to everyone else". This is why it makes no sense to train the skill, because that "full effect" will be lost after the patch.

no sense to train the skill now, no. i've been enjoying cdo5 for a long time now, though~
oh! and your percieved advantage still has nothing to do with reimbursement. you still have 5% per level.

maybe if everything you used drones for directly compared your drone dps against everyone else's drone dps at the same time?

Quote:
Then maybe CCP should just give everyone level 5 in all skills since training them is apparently irrelevant in determining if one should or should not gain access to a skill effect.

that's pretty clearly not what i said mate.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2014-05-16 21:13:07 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.


And it is the mechanism that decides if you can use a module / rig/ hull and how powerful that item is.

no, that's skills, silly

Quote:
how is this thread still going?

the power of love.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#574 - 2014-05-16 21:18:30 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
[
Oh boo hoo. I lost a combat advantage when they nerfed heavy missiles 2 years ago. Did I get reimbursed SP? No. I did not. Get over yourself. SP is not an indication on how good you are at this game. I see low SP characters beat high SP characters all the time. Let a newbro buy an account with 100mil SP, and you will most likely see him lose a carrier because he didn't know the mechanics. I would rather test my skills against someone who has low SP and knows the mechanics and knows how to manually fly his ship; versus someone who knows shite about the mechanics and manually flying, but has a 100mil SP.


Why would you get SP for a mechanics change? The HML change had nothing to do with skills and impacted people the same whether they had 5/5 or were 1/5.

Its not about the SP number, its about the benefits being given to people who have not trained the skill, and it is applicable not only to SDO 5/ CDO 0, but the inverse as well, or any combination there in. Giving people the same skills based on the level of one skill as people with 2 skills is poor implementation.

God damn.


And the changes to drones are the same thing. CCP is rebalancing drones to be more inline with the game. Something they should have done years ago. Adding those 2 new skills and removing CDO is part of that process.
Mario Putzo
#575 - 2014-05-16 21:30:09 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:

And the changes to drones are the same thing. CCP is rebalancing drones to be more inline with the game. Something they should have done years ago. Adding those 2 new skills and removing CDO is part of that process.


Ya because CCP totally removed Warhead Upgrades when they retooled the mechanics of missiles last year, Oh wait nope that skill is still there.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#576 - 2014-05-16 21:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Benny Ohu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

i think it's hilarious is what it's got to do with this

it's players who trained mining barge v to unlock orcas complaining that someone else can unlock orcas without mining barge v.

Was Mining Barge removed from the game? No.

no, but people're still complaining about ~loss of advantage~ and demanding reimbursement.


Which really equates to why is SDO5 player becoming equal to SDO5 + CDO5 player. You can say "to preserve balance" but that doesn't address the fact that the SDO5 player invested less time than the SDO5 + CDO5 player.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#577 - 2014-05-16 21:46:19 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:

And the changes to drones are the same thing. CCP is rebalancing drones to be more inline with the game. Something they should have done years ago. Adding those 2 new skills and removing CDO is part of that process.


Ya because CCP totally removed Warhead Upgrades when they retooled the mechanics of missiles last year, Oh wait nope that skill is still there.


Whine moar please. If you don't like the changes, you don't have to play.

Bottomline is CCP isn't taking away skill/ skillpoints, so no free SP.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2014-05-16 21:47:54 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
[quote=Nar' alk Breau]It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.


And it is the mechanism that decides if you can use a module / rig/ hull and how powerful that item is.

no, that's skills, silly

And what is it that gives a skill it's ranking? The level it's at? And how do you define the level? Wait for it... via the skill points.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2014-05-16 21:48:07 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:

And the changes to drones are the same thing. CCP is rebalancing drones to be more inline with the game. Something they should have done years ago. Adding those 2 new skills and removing CDO is part of that process.


Ya because CCP totally removed Warhead Upgrades when they retooled the mechanics of missiles last year, Oh wait nope that skill is still there.


Whine moar please. If you don't like the changes, you don't have to play.

Bottomline is CCP isn't taking away skill/ skillpoints, so no free SP.

Nope, they're just exchanging them, which has been refunded in the past (social skills)
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2014-05-16 21:49:48 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:

And the changes to drones are the same thing. CCP is rebalancing drones to be more inline with the game. Something they should have done years ago. Adding those 2 new skills and removing CDO is part of that process.


Ya because CCP totally removed Warhead Upgrades when they retooled the mechanics of missiles last year, Oh wait nope that skill is still there.


Whine moar please. If you don't like the changes, you don't have to play.

Bottomline is CCP isn't taking away skill/ skillpoints, so no free SP.



Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to ask does it?